Reef Discussion

Dr. Schell

The Fuckin' Doc
Jul 12, 2011
1,972
1,228
Brisbane
Sounds like your doing the right thing food wise, just varied good quality (you already are ) and very small amounts often. You don't have a lot of fish so don't over feed or you will end up with other sorts of problems (phos nitrates etc).Like I did because my fish always looked hungry (big mistake) lol
I did 25% changes while dealing with ICH, not to get rid of the parasite but to keep absolute pristine conditions. It worked for me. But Dr Schell seems to have a lot more experience than I do so I would be interested to hear his opinion on that as well. Let us know how it all goes and good luck.
When my system experiences a bout of marine white spot (I generally refer to it as marine shite spot), I tend not to alter my feeding, tank maintenance routine. I generally conduct water changes once every 2 weeks, regardless of the presence of marine white spot. Bouts of the disease generally coincide with increasing levels of stress (ie. if a new fish is introduced, there is a sudden change in a water parameter, there is a change in the food given to the fish).
 

daveH

Team Leader
Nov 24, 2011
2,958
1,475
Brisbane Northside
Reef quality water parameters are identified at the following link: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/
Strive for the parameters listed for the ocean, as this is what fish have evolved to suit.
I'm consistently bang on with all those parameters, except my phosphate level which is slightly high and I'll have to work on (even though the tank is in brilliant condition)
 

joey13

Member
Dec 1, 2013
208
107
I've decided that I am going to try and get them to fight on through.

Still no signs of infection on the other fish and all fish including the wrasse seem happy and are eating well.

I will continue to feed regular small quantities of quality food and I will also get some garlic to mix in.

I will be performing my usual weekly water changes however I will bump them from 10%-25% with a view to keep the parameters as close to ideal reef conditions.

I have managed to get a hold of some "Medic" which I am going to try in conjunction with this method. I know there is some debate about this product and mixed reviews but it has been proven to be reef safe and I don't imagine it could actually hurt anything but may assist in relief of the symptoms. I personally know several friends whom have used it and have had success. I fully understand that this is by no means a cure but rather possibly a "relief".

If I employ this method and all goes well, how long would you leave the tank before adding additional stock.

Secondly what is the likelihood of a new fish being infected? If it is high, I may consider employing this method until fish are all back to good health and transfer them out to the QT tank which should be ready to go by then.

I could then leave the tank fallow for 3 months to ensure it is eradicated.
 

joey13

Member
Dec 1, 2013
208
107
Just looked at the wrasse and he actually appears to have a lot less spots than yesterday? Actually I can barely see any. Is this normal for it to show up and disappear all within a day?
 

Lesley

Member
Apr 2, 2013
2,086
1,079
Just looked at the wrasse and he actually appears to have a lot less spots than yesterday? Actually I can barely see any. Is this normal for it to show up and disappear all within a day?
yes, it can happen. Stress of the alk overdose, new tank etc. More comfortable now. As I said many people seem to over react to this situation. It is so easy to do when you are so involved in your fish and tank. Glad to hear the news. Just keep doing what your doing, although I would probably stop the Medic. may be no need for it now .
Keep us posted.
 

joey13

Member
Dec 1, 2013
208
107
Thanks Lesley. I too also follow that link. :)

I was going to start the medic tonight.

You think hold off?

Should I start up a UV I have instead
 

Lesley

Member
Apr 2, 2013
2,086
1,079
Thanks Lesley. I too also follow that link. :)

I was going to start the medic tonight.

You think hold off?

Should I start up a UV I have instead
If he is looking better than I would hold off and see how he is tomorrow. 12 hours can make a big difference.

With regards to the uv - I dont run one, although I did in my freshwater tanks.
The reason I don't is I have heard mixed reports that it can kill good little critters like copepods, plankton for corals etc. I have dragonets that need to eat those little critters.
Love it on the freshwater though.
I am not positive about the UV - just my choice so I would wait for further advice from someone a bit more experienced than I. lol
 

joey13

Member
Dec 1, 2013
208
107
I've been observing it for the past hour and the only remaining dots I can see are on one fin only (side). There's around 3-4. Otherwise it's like it never had them?
 

Lesley

Member
Apr 2, 2013
2,086
1,079
I've been observing it for the past hour and the only remaining dots I can see are on one fin only (side). There's around 3-4. Otherwise it's like it never had them?
Forget UV & Medic for now. Observe and then act if needed.
good news. keep us informed.
 

Lesley

Member
Apr 2, 2013
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He has lovely color. He also doesn't look bad at all from the photos. If happy eating and active just wait and see. But looks all good.
 

joey13

Member
Dec 1, 2013
208
107
Have been scouring through mountains of information on this disease since it appeared and I'm now starting to think differently.

I've had a look at images of "marine Ich" using google. None seem to be what the wrasse had however I understand that these photos are usually of extreme cases of it and so my wrasse probably still has it.

Given the life cycle of Marine Ich, I'm thinking this fish already had it prior to adding it since the disease became apparent the following day after adding it.

Fish can apparently build up an immunity to this disease but it does not necessarily mean that the fish does not carry it nor does it mean that it isn't infected. The fish just may not exhibit the obvious symptoms that we can see and for the most part can live with it with some form immunity which helps it through and helps it fight low level infestations. Immunity does not necessarily last forever either.

"[/I]Fish can develop immunity to Cryptocaryon irritans that can last for up to six months (Colorni, 1987 and Colorni & Burgess, 1997). It is this natural immunity that makes evaluating the effectiveness of various treatment options so difficult. How can someone ever be certain that what they dosed to their tank or fed to their fish is what caused the cure they observed? The answer is simple, they can't. Until there are controlled, scientific studies, preferably repeated a few times, we cannot be sure that any of the newer homeopathic or "reef-safe" treatments actually work.

This limited immunity is also the basis for some aquarists advocating that if a fish gets sick, to just maintain pristine water quality, feed a superb diet, and to allow the fish's own immune system to do the job. While it is possible that this could work, natural immunity is not totally foolproof. In the studies cited above, some of the fish were not completely protected by their own natural immunity. It is possible that immunity could protect the fish from massive infestation, but still allow small numbers of parasites to remain and reproduce undetected by the aquarist. This is where the 'Ich is always present' argument comes into play and why sometimes an aquarist has recurring difficulties with this pathogen. It is possible, in some cases, that the treatment was cut short or misapplied or for some other reason not totally effective, but that immunity helped to partially ward off the infection. In this situation, a low-level infestation, held in check by natural immunity but not totally eradicated, could continue to survive but be misdiagnosed, or missed all together, by the hobbyist. The parasites could progress through their lifecycle by predominately attacking the gill tissue, where they could go unseen. Or, the number of parasites could be so low and their appearance (and disappearance) be erratic enough that the aquarist does not pick up on the infection or attributes the occasional white spot to a speck of sand or air bubble because the fish are behaving normally otherwise. That is until some other minor mishap occurs or the immunity wears off and the balance shifts in favor of the infestation, resulting in a full-blown infestation once again.

I want to be clear on this point. I do not believe Cryptocaryon irritans is always present in our systems. With a strict quarantine protocol, it is possible keep an Ich-free aquarium. I just believe that there have been enough hobbyists who have misused a treatment or utilized an ineffective treatment option, such that they never really fully conquered their initial infestation. Their continuing problems over the course of many months, and the posting of those experiences, seem to be enough to promote this aquarium myth. Cryptocaryon irritans can be eradicated from an infected system with a proven treatment and can be kept out of the system if good quarantine practices are employed.
[/i]

I have also read several articles which debate the fact that marine ich always lives within an aquarium and I have to say I agree. The life cycle has been studied in depth and has been proven that it cannot lie dormant. It must go through it's cycle and must find a host. If the tank has been left to run fallow for a period of at least 8 weeks, then there is no way that it can still be alive.

If I am to leave the fish be and continue to feed well and maintain water quality, there is a high likelihood that any new additions will be infected and I will be forever battling this disease forever more. The fish may build their immunity however will still be carrying it, the disease will still continue to go through it's cycle and reproduce and will infect newcomers.

I am now starting to sway toward establishing my QT and removing and treating the fish with either hypo or copper treatment. I want to be confident that I have eradicated this problem completely and this seems to be the only way.
 
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joey13

Member
Dec 1, 2013
208
107
Thanks for the help guys. I've been thinking and researching a lot and I've also had another thought which if like to run by you.

Ich is visible from 2-7 days after it is infected before it falls off. I viewed this fish on Monday and it was clear. I then pickup up the fish on Wednesday and it was clear.

When adding it to my tank, it got chased like a mofo by the flame angel and had disappeared for a fair while.

Wrasses have a very thick slime coat and wrasses are also known to bury themselves in the sand.

The wrasse did disappear for a fair whole initially and I am almost certain he goes into the sand at night.

The day after adding it, dots showed up however don't look like exactly like the images of ich I have seen. These looked like they were on top of the skin rather than under the skin. Next day they almost completely disappear and today they are gone bar maybe 1 very tiny dot on a pectoral fin.

Fish has no other symptoms. Eating, breathing normal. No flashing or scratching what so ever. It is happily swimming around in the open and his colour is very vibrant!

Is it possible I was totally wrong and it was sand or debris stuck in its slime coat?

I understand that when they get stressed (new tank, getting chased), they produce more of a slime coat as a defense mechanism.

If it was ich and they have now fallen off and encrusted in the sand the. They should hatch soon and have 24 hours to find a host so i would see signs of infection on other fish within the next 2-7 days correct?

I'm not sure any drastic measures are in order considering I have not confirmed that it was actually infected?
 

Lesley

Member
Apr 2, 2013
2,086
1,079
Thanks for the help guys. I've been thinking and researching a lot and I've also had another thought which if like to run by you.

Ich is visible from 2-7 days after it is infected before it falls off. I viewed this fish on Monday and it was clear. I then pickup up the fish on Wednesday and it was clear.

When adding it to my tank, it got chased like a mofo by the flame angel and had disappeared for a fair while.

Wrasses have a very thick slime coat and wrasses are also known to bury themselves in the sand.

The wrasse did disappear for a fair whole initially and I am almost certain he goes into the sand at night.

The day after adding it, dots showed up however don't look like exactly like the images of ich I have seen. These looked like they were on top of the skin rather than under the skin. Next day they almost completely disappear and today they are gone bar maybe 1 very tiny dot on a pectoral fin.

Fish has no other symptoms. Eating, breathing normal. No flashing or scratching what so ever. It is happily swimming around in the open and his colour is very vibrant!

Is it possible I was totally wrong and it was sand or debris stuck in its slime coat?

I understand that when they get stressed (new tank, getting chased), they produce more of a slime coat as a defense mechanism.

If it was ich and they have now fallen off and encrusted in the sand the. They should hatch soon and have 24 hours to find a host so i would see signs of infection on other fish within the next 2-7 days correct?

I'm not sure any drastic measures are in order considering I have not confirmed that it was actually infected?

We had a Red Coris Wrasse that used to sleep in the sand at night. When he appeared first thing which was generally at 1pm when lights came on he used to have grains of sand on him for the first 15 mins or so. But when we were trying to catch him to get rid of him and we woke him from his sleep under his special rock he would stay covered in grains of sand for a few hours each time. Chances are you are totally right and you never had ICH in the first place.
lol... Now thats what I call an over reaction to something.....lol
P.S Some one on here told me something that is so very true.
Just think you were going to throw in the towel.
Nothing happens quickly in the reefing world, don't panic, sit back think and take your time with everything.
 

holly

Member
Jul 10, 2013
1,806
832
Melbourne
@Buddy uses the swapping technique I believe where he switches the fish into a new tank every certain amount of weeks to interrupt the ability of the parasite to re-attach to the fish. Doesn't require cycling just regular water changes to prevent ammonia build up. Perhaps a few more people can chip in as I've never had to deal with ich.
 

joey13

Member
Dec 1, 2013
208
107
I think I'll wait 2 weeks or so paying close attention to each fish each day. If I don't see anything at all, I think I may have been wrong in my diagnosis.

I am a natural stress head hence the over reaction. Plus it really upsets me big time to lose a fish!
 

Lesley

Member
Apr 2, 2013
2,086
1,079
I think I'll wait 2 weeks or so paying close attention to each fish each day. If I don't see anything at all, I think I may have been wrong in my diagnosis.

I am a natural stress head hence the over reaction. Plus it really upsets me big time to lose a fish!
I get where your coming from. I cried when I lost a lipstick tang (not to ich). So the over reaction is completely understandable. I used to when I first got the tank. Now I have learnt to worry less and relax and enjoy more.
You will over time too. lol
 

Buddy

Member
Mar 13, 2012
3,142
1,526
@Buddy uses the swapping technique I believe where he switches the fish into a new tank every certain amount of weeks to interrupt the ability of the parasite to re-attach to the fish. Doesn't require cycling just regular water changes to prevent ammonia build up. Perhaps a few more people can chip in as I've never had to deal with ich.
This is called the tank transfer method. You transfer the fish to new water every 3 days, after the 4th transfer there should be no ich parasite.