Reef Discussion

[joey13]

Well after a dream run, 9 weeks in and I'm seriously not having a good run at all.

Yesterday I overdosed my tank big time with alk and today I've noticed a new addition has white spot!

I added a Laboutes Fairy Wrasse into my tank which I purchased from Reeflections on Wednesday. Today I noticed it's covered in ich. Has and is still behaving and eating fine since adding it. I was told it would be fine to add with quarantining as wrasses are faulty hardy and are not prone to this disease!

I am seriously contemplating shutting the whole tank down. It's causing me a lot of undue stress. My QT tank has still not cycled and I have no idea what to do. I'm literally going to have to sit and watch the rest of my stock be infected also.

I can't start a copper treatment or hypo as the tank is stocked with corals. I also believe it's pointless in a tank that has a sand bed since it can sit dormant in the bed.

No idea what to do. Really devastated right now and was dreading this problem the most of all! This is why I was so hesitant to take the plunge into SW.

 

[joey13]

Stock list:
One Spot Fox Face
Flame angel
Pair of occy clowns
1 x strombus
1 x trochus
4 x turbos
4 x cerith
3 x nassarius

 

[holly]

That's a real shame about the fish :(

You can do this Joey - Get your fish out into your quarantine tank and start hypo. Quarantine tanks are made for regular water changes and are usually not cycled but filled as needed. I've heard of great success with leaving a tank without fish for 3 months.

It's times like this where you need to take a breath and think things through when you're not feeling stressed about it (or less stressed). I'd add crushed garlic into the fish food and just keep your QT water changed regularly to keep the fish happy.

 

[joey13]

The QT tank is in the second stage of the cycle. It's processing 2ppm of ammonia daily but nitrites are off the chart!!

I'm not confident in housing the fish in this tank without sufficient bio filtration. I'm so overwhelmed and stressed right now!

 

[joey13]

Are corals effected by this disease at all? If the tank is left for 3 months months, I assume the white spot is dead? Does this include any that are dormant in the sand bed?

 

[Lesley]

HI, sorry to hear about your situation.
We are fairly new to all of this SW stuff too. 12 months now and YES we got ICH too.
We got a powder blue tang that infected our yellow tank, foxface and hippos very quickly.
We spoke with an old timer (reefing over 50 yrs is now in his 70's).
He told us his method and it worked a treat for us. Up to you if you try or not.
Dont QT your fish, he believed the stress of catching and QT tanks would often cause death to a fish that will probably not die if left in the display.

Do 25 % weekly water changes - lots of small regular feeding with good quality food - and no aggression in the tank - chasing, fighting etc
Keep water parameters pristine and consistent, so test a little more often than you normally would.
And most strong healthy fish will fight it off themselves.

Our powder blue and all others got over it within 10 days were completely clear of all spots.
He explained that the parasite itself would remain living in the tank forever more, but any fish that had fought it off themselves were very unlikely to ever get it again, and if it did it would be a very mild case.
If there was no stress or aggression and pristine water it was very unlikely to rear its ugly head again anyway even with new additions.

It worked for us, we have added numerous fish into the DT since then and it has not ever appeared again. .We understand that we have to keep aggression low and quality of water and food high but we would want to do that anyway.

Give it a go, its better than giving up and shutting down.
A lot of people seem to over-react to this situation (I know we did ) and yes some people may lose fish but dont give up. The rewards you reap are worth all the trouble I promise you.

 

[joey13]

Thanks for the reply. I will def consider it. I'm way too upset right now to be able to make a decision.

As far as I understand, the human eye can only see white spot in stage 2 (when it's pregnant). So they haven't hatched and burrowed into the fish yet? If I remove the wrasse now, is there a chance the others will be spared or is it a given that the rest will inevitably contract it?

 

[Lesley]

Thanks for the reply. I will def consider it. I'm way too upset right now to be able to make a decision.

As far as I understand, the human eye can only see white spot in stage 2 (when it's pregnant). So they haven't hatched and burrowed into the fish yet? If I remove the wrasse now, is there a chance the others will be spared or is it a given that the rest will inevitably contract it?[/QUOTE

Not all fish will get it, half our tank didn't get it the other half did.
Yes it will now be in your tank, but I chose to not leave my tank empty for 3 months and there was still no guarantee that your not going to get it again. You can QT a fish for 6 weeks put it in the display and it gets attacked badly by another fish and sure enough it will get ICH. The old timer told me that all fish carry it and it can make an appearance even after QT. if the parameters are not great, food is not good and most off all stress.

I worried and stressed like you did, if fact lost sleep for a few nights. But with the routine he gave us we honestly saw results very quickly. We had a lot more stock at risk than you do. I doubt the clowns will get it, as apparently it is rare for them. The flame angel may, but as I said, strong fish will fight it off like they do in the ocean. It is not just a parasite that lives in our tanks, most fish will get it at some stage in there lifetime.

Its in your tank now, so you either QT all your fish (catch, small tank, probably more aggresion) or you ride it out and let it take a natural course with you doing all the right things to help it along.
Hippos are like ICH magnets, we put a longnose butterfly in and sure enough he got ICH. Both Hippos that had it with the powder blue did not get it again. If fact it was isolated to him only, not one other fish got it. So maybe the immunity the old fella talked about is true

 

[Lesley]

Not all fish will get it, half our tank didn't get it the other half did.
Yes it will now be in your tank, but I chose to not leave my tank empty for 3 months and there was still no guarantee that your not going to get it again. You can QT a fish for 6 weeks put it in the display and it gets attacked badly by another fish and sure enough it will get ICH. The old timer told me that all fish carry it and it can make an appearance even after QT. if the parameters are not great, food is not good and most off all stress.

I worried and stressed like you did, if fact lost sleep for a few nights. But with the routine he gave us we honestly saw results very quickly. We had a lot more stock at risk than you do. I doubt the clowns will get it, as apparently it is rare for them. The flame angel may, but as I said, strong fish will fight it off like they do in the ocean. It is not just a parasite that lives in our tanks, most fish will get it at some stage in there lifetime.

Its in your tank now, so you either QT all your fish (catch, small tank, probably more aggresion) or you ride it out and let it take a natural course with you doing all the right things to help it along.
Hippos are like ICH magnets, we put a longnose butterfly in and sure enough he got ICH. Both Hippos that had it with the powder blue did not get it again. If fact it was isolated to him only, not one other fish got it. So maybe the immunity the old fella talked about is true

 

[holly]

It can't hurt to take extra care as Lesley has suggested and see how you go. From what I've read, having a tank without fish for 9-11 weeks is the only way for the cycle to be completely broken and the parasite starved adequately of a host. I know I would be stressed each time I added a fish, wondering if it was going to get ich or not. The risk of the stress of moving the fish is a real consideration.

 

[holly]

http://thereefuge.com/threads/itch-update-acan-lover.10389/

 

[joey13]

Thanks for all the pointers guys. I'm starting to calm down a little. I just don't want to lose any of my babies!! Sounds soft I know!

All the points you guys have put up makes sense. Except how can it always remain in the tank forever more even if the tank has been without a host for x period of time (I.e up to 3 months?).

 

[Lesley]

Thanks for all the pointers guys. I'm starting to calm down a little. I just don't want to lose any of my babies!! Sounds soft I know!

All the points you guys have put up makes sense. Except how can it always remain in the tank forever more even if the tank has been without a host for x period of time (I.e up to 3 months?).

It will die in your tank if fallow for that long !! But what size QT are you going to keep those 4 fish in. ? How much stress are they and you going to be under for. 3 months. You still have to run your DT as normal. You may have to pull your whole tank apart just to catch them all. ? Have you actually tried ? We took 5 months trying to catch one fish in our tank !! Honestly unless caught quickly the stress from the chase will kill an already stressed sick fish. Keeping him calm stress free and well feed in pristine water has to help recovery more. !!! If he is acting normal eating well and active I really wouldn't worry to much. Why don't you wait and see if his condition worsens. Lack of apatite inactive. If that happens then go the QT root. Otherwise just monitor diligently and observe observe observe. !!!

 

[Dr. Schell]

@joey13, a tank with marine white-spot is not the end of the world. As has been pointed out by others above, certain fish are more sucessaptable to the disease than others. My reef system has been running long term (in excess of 5 years). I use natural seawater, collected locally for use in water changes. As I often collect my water at night (the time when the parasitic dispersal phase occurs) there is often a like hood of transferring the parasite into my system. As a consequence of this, I often notice that my blue tang displays the symptoms of marine white spot (ie small white spots apparent for a few days). However, that said, in all the time that I have had the tank running I have only loss 2 fish (ie 2 juvenile angler fish that were temporally held in the tank - this species is particularly susceptible to the disease which is often fatal to the fish) to marine white spot. That being said, I feed my fish lots of food from various different sources, and I maintain REEF quality water. I have NEVER treated my tank for white-spot. To give you an indication of my system, a video of the system is provided below:

This is the key to reducing mortality with marine white spot - feeding and water quality. When first exposed to the parasite, fish will become infected, the parasite will utilise the fish, and then leave the host. A second wave on infection will occur a few weeks later, and the cycle will continue. HOWEVER, if properly maintained, the fish will develop a degree of immunity to the parasite, and thus, will seemingly remain unaffected.

Long story short, your best source of action should be to ensure the fish are fed well on a varied diet, and your water quality should be maintained at reef standards.

Good luck.

 

[Dr. Schell]

I just read your thread regarding the OD with alk and the sudden change in value. A change this sudden, may make the fish in your tank stressed (not noticeable in terms of behaviour, but instead, physiologically stressed). If you observed the white spot AFTER this OD episode, then it is likely that the marine white spot episode is an opportunistic event taken by the parasite whist the fish defences are down. If this is so, it may be good news in that your fish may already have some degree of 'immunity' to marine white spot and as they acclimate to the new alk value, the should become less physiologically stressed and therefore, better adept at fighting off disease.

 

[Lesley]

I just read your thread regarding the OD with alk and the sudden change in value. A change this sudden, may make the fish in your tank stressed (not noticeable in terms of behaviour, but instead, physiologically stressed). If you observed the white spot AFTER this OD episode, then it is likely that the marine white spot episode is an opportunistic event taken by the parasite whist the fish defences are down. If this is so, it may be good news in that your fish may already have some degree of 'immunity' to marine white spot and as they acclimate to the new alk value, the should become less physiologically stressed and therefore, better adept at fighting off disease.

I was thinking exactly the same thing but wasn't sure if I was being stupid. Glad to see some one with your exp. confirm my thoughts. Thanks. Another lesson learned.

 

[Dr. Schell]

the thing that is often not realised with MARINE creatures is that the sea is VERY CONSTANT in its parameters. UNLIKE freshwater lakes and rivers that often change dramatically in a short period of time, the SEA is VAST and does not change in terms of temperate or water quality readily. Given that the VAST MAJORIETY of fish that we keep in our systems come directly from the ocean, they have evolved to (and experienced) constant, relatively unchanging conditions. therefore, any sudden change in our systems WILL CAUSE STRESS to the tank occupants, regardless of its external visibility. Physiological stress (not to be confused with behavioural stress) can often be lethal, and may result in the death of a fish in a very short space of time.
This is why, as marine aquarists, we strive for SYSTEM STABILITY.

 

[joey13]

Wow Dr. Schell, thank you for such a detailed response.

I too was also going to ask the question about the OD of alk and suspected this may have brought it on. I feel even more stupid for this have occurring. To answer you question, the OD was yesterday and I noticed the white spot today so yes it appeared after the fact.

Anyway, that being said I will take yours and Lesley advice as it makes the most sense to me. I agree that chasing the fish around trying to get them out will likely cause them more harm than good. Not to mention it being almost impossible without pulling down the whole tank.

I do have a decent sized QT tank however it hasn't finished cycling as yet and is probably another week or so off so it's not really an option.

The other fish show no signs what so ever at this stage. All fish are behaving normal and eating.

My current parameters are
pH: 8.5
Alk: 175ppm (9.8 dKH) - Down from 10.752 yesterday at the peak of the OD
Cal: 410 ppm
Mag: 1260 ppm

I have been performing weekly 10% water changes from the start. Do you think I should maintain this or increase the percentage?

With regards to feeding, I have been giving them pellets in the morning, frozen mysis and brine shrimp in the evening. I sometimes clip some seaweed in as well.

Can you please advise what else I should be feeding and how often?

 

[Lesley]

Sounds like your doing the right thing food wise, just varied good quality (you already are ) and very small amounts often. You don't have a lot of fish so don't over feed or you will end up with other sorts of problems (phos nitrates etc).Like I did because my fish always looked hungry (big mistake) lol
I did 25% changes while dealing with ICH, not to get rid of the parasite but to keep absolute pristine conditions. It worked for me. But Dr Schell seems to have a lot more experience than I do so I would be interested to hear his opinion on that as well. Let us know how it all goes and good luck.

 

[daveH]

Just out of interest @Dr. Schell, what parameters do you regard as reef quality water?