Reef Discussion

[Sam Parker]

Hi All,

got introduced to a couple through a mutual friend who have had a fish only marine tank running for a couple years and their fish have outgrown the tank (like, massively...). Now they have a new house and have spent up big on a fancy new tank (huge new tank, its like 2 meters long and approximately 2.5 feet tall and deep...)

Now this is where the problem starts.

They bought the tank from an aquarium store in Melbourne (not going to name and shame as it won't serve any point) and the tank clearly seems to be a freshwater setup that is intended for a cannister not a sump. The people at the store have gone and added a sump (and charged swingingly for the effort). Now the cabinet is simply not tall enough to have a functional sump underneath. I think it is about 55cm tall and the sump is around 40cm tall... It also cannot be removed as the cabinet appears to have been glued together on assembly. So, I have no idea how a skimmer was meant to be fitted into the sump, but that is now out of the question. (ignore the bulkhead on the left hand side of the tank in this picture, it is just sitting there. The hole is actually in the back corner)

The next issue, plumbing. The tank comes with two 50mm bulkheads already installed, one in the back corner on each side. It comes with this odd weir/return all-in-one fittings that has the return come up through the middle of the drain. Despite being a little odd, my major concern with them is that they have drains at the top and bottom, which in my mind means it was meant to be connected to a cannister not a sump as if the power goes off, they will continue to drain 1200 odd litres into a sump that holds maybe 200l.

The idiots also drilled a hole in the sump side wall for a gravity feed ATO float, but it has been drilled in a spot where it will never work. So that will need to be plugged up also...

My plans/thoughts.
I think the best way to go will be to use the sump as is, but instead of a skimmer run a refugium or an algae scrubber. It currently has foam/floss, then the main section, then more floss, then return, I think that will be fine with a fuge or scrubber in the middle section (tank will again be fish only so really just trying to export some waste) Will also recommend a decent pile of marine pure to help in there too. For the plumbing, I'm thinking of running the return up the back of the cabinet/tank and over the top and in via a lilly pipe. Use the two bulkheads currently in the tank to setup a standard durso and an emergency drain. Keen to hear people's thoughts on this but also REALLY KEEN to see if anyone from here would like to help me help them? Could be a "The Reefuge community event"! I think if we had a few hands on deck we could have it up and running in a day. Problem is, the tank is located in a town called Smythsdale (about ten mins out of Ballarat or an hour and a half from Melbourne).

Appreciate any advice or offers to help!

Cheers,
Sam

P.S. Forgot to add, the store in question have been no help when the customers have asked for help. Just said that they can send staff out at $75 per hour per head (travel time included) to have a look...

 

[RobbieMVFC]

Sam, clutching at straws ... if you turn the tank over to the side and cut out the bottom of the stand is that an option ? So you can build a new stand and have more room Height wise?

Make sure the tank & sump is supported when doing so...

So the tank will not separate from the stand?

 

[Sam Parker]

The tank will separate from the stand, but it would be a fair expense to replace stand and sump considering this is a brand new setup. I think the current stand/sump will work fine for the look they want in fish only with live rock.

 

[RobbieMVFC]

What I am saying if you cut out just the base of the stand and then build a small frame . like the olden day skirting boards around the base and have the base lower.
dose this make sense?

p.S I think Dave from Deer park runs a skimer less system at his home

 

[Sam Parker]

I think I follow, cut out the base of the stand, sit sump on floor instead of floor of cabinet? To be honest, I'm not too stressed about the layout of the sump now that I have resigned on the thought of a skimmer fitting. They are coming from a all in one tank with no skimmer or filtration or anything really, so a fuge will do amazing things for them. Not to mention plenty of space for carbon/gfo reactors if needed and some marine pure.

Thanks for the idea though :D

 

[Synodontis]

Hey @Sam Parker
This tank should be returned back to the store in question. It was sold as a marine system & is not suitable for the purpose it was sold for, plan & simple. You do not spend this amount of money for a complete brand new system, then go spending more money to make it actually work.
I would be contacting consumer affairs as this store knows the system won't work.

@DavidS care to chime in lol

 

[TheJordans]

Man, that sucks! I have nothing useful to add other than to agree with Ken. I'm sure that Consumer Affairs would side with the customer on this one!!

 

[Sam Parker]

I'll put the option forward to the owners but I think they just want to move forward.

Despite its flaws, it could work (agree it will never be ideal, but we are talking a fish only setup?)

Am I being too optimistic in thinking it could work?

 

[Agent M]

I'll put the option forward to the owners but I think they just want to move forward.

Despite its flaws, it could work (agree it will never be ideal, but we are talking a fish only setup?)

Am I being too optimistic in thinking it could work?

I understand them not wanting to have to confront the store and fight for a good outcome but I'm with Syno and Bek on this one. There is a saying that you can't polish a turd. I know from experience what it is like living with something that was not as ordered and now is the right time to send it back while its still in new condition and unused.

The best way someone could help them is by helping them to deal with the store. Full refund, go to one of the proven good guys in Melbourne who give good after sale service as well.

 

[Tannum_Paul]

I see 2 options here, work with what you have got and make the best of what you have. Or return the goods which is a customers right within 30 days as long as the product is undamaged.

I would go for returning the product, polishing shit sounds really messy and smelly!

That said if you were to push ahead with this tank I think you are for a world of non ending pain! Large fish you have to skim the hell out of the water! I have a surf 2+ and as much as I LOVE it I can't see it or it cousins maintaining a huge tank like that!

They spent a lot of money on a tank, they don't want a dodge system which they have to fight to maintain and looks ugly!

 

[Sam Parker]

OK - here is the latest for those interested.

We are going to go ahead with the tank, will run a large fuge in the sump as the main source of nutrient export (along with water changes). This will be based off some spare coral bone I have laying around and will be lit up by a couple of bunnings clip on desk lights with warm white globes. Will grab a handful of cheato at some stage to start it off.

Will either get the factory "weirs" to work or replace with a standard durso stand pipe and emergency drain. Return will come up the rear of the tank and into the display.

The owners have been explained to and understand that if/when they start stocking the tank with more fish, they will need to run an external skimmer, most likely in the garage (other side of the wall) or in a covering piece of furniture next to the tank.

Finally, marine pure blocks will be added to the other sections of the sump to assist with the nutrient break down. Hopefully this will get this tank running and the owners back on track :)

 

[Ian3145]

Hey @Sam Parker
This tank should be returned back to the store in question. It was sold as a marine system & is not suitable for the purpose it was sold for, plan & simple. You do not spend this amount of money for a complete brand new system, then go spending more money to make it actually work.
I would be contacting consumer affairs as this store knows the system won't work.

@DavidS care to chime in lol

Couldn't agree more. it is a simple law and unambiguous. It must be suitable for the pupose it was sold for. After being screwed on the tank, I would never go back to the supplier anyway so may as well make them replace or refund.

 

[Sam Parker]

I think where it gets murky is just how unsuitable the tank is. It can hold salt water and the sump will in fact work ok. You could fit a skimmer in there (would be waaaay undersized though).

Exactly how unsuitable does the item need to be? That is the ambiguous part.

 

[dimitri]

take it back, not fit for purpose.

it gives you zero flexibility in the future especially if they do want to go to corals.

you and the client don't need to be wasting time on forums and trying to retrofit things

 

[Tannum_Paul]

I think where it gets murky is just how unsuitable the tank is. It can hold salt water and the sump will in fact work ok. You could fit a skimmer in there (would be waaaay undersized though).

Exactly how unsuitable does the item need to be? That is the ambiguous part.

Put it this way Sam, if you as a reefer walk in look at the tank and think nope that would be hard to use as a reef tank............then it is unfit for purpose.

I could make a esky into a reef tank if I wanted to do the work, doesn't mean a esky can be sold as a reef tank.

The law looks at things as a "reasonable person" which means if as a "reasonable person" you don't think the tank is fit for a reef tank then it isn't. Fraudulent misrepresentation comes to my mind on the facts we have before us.

 

[Agent M]

OK - here is the latest for those interested.

I am quite interested to follow this and see how it turns out. So keep the updates coming!

OK - here is the latest for those interested.

We are going to go ahead with the tank, will run a large fuge in the sump as the main source of nutrient export (along with water changes). This will be based off some spare coral bone I have laying around and will be lit up by a couple of bunnings clip on desk lights with warm white globes. Will grab a handful of cheato at some stage to start it off.
......
The owners have been explained to and understand that if/when they start stocking the tank with more fish, they will need to run an external skimmer, most likely in the garage (other side of the wall) or in a covering piece of furniture next to the tank.

Finally, marine pure blocks will be added to the other sections of the sump to assist with the nutrient break down. Hopefully this will get this tank running and the owners back on track :)

Ok so lets start polishing this turd then, lol. In this case I wouldn't go with Marine Pure. The sump is often a detritus accumulation zone and if access is limited for cleaning then thats going to be a frustration for the owners.

I would suggest going the all natural filtration route in the sump so that it can be left alone without maintenance, or very little, for months at a time. Especially as the tank is going skimmerless. They will only need a skimmer later on if they find they can't keep nitrates and phosphates down.

Set up good flow in the display to encourage fish poop to end up in the sump. Use a coarse substrate in the display for semi-regular gravel vacuuming.

I would suggest a deep sand bed and/or Miracle Mud in chinese takeaway containers that is replaced every 6-12 months on rotation. As much as you can fit in there, go crazy. Come up with innovative racks or stands that maximise that space if need be. You still need oxygenated water to run slowly over the surface of the DSB and Miracle Mud trays so make sure you leave gaps in between when stacking.

If you want to get that DSB to hit the ground running, use a bottled bacteria product like Dr Tim's One and Only Nitrifying Bacteria (www.vitamingrocer.com.au - may take up to a month to arrive). But otherwise just seed it with a kilo or two of fresh live rock - hopefully a piece that has some fan worms etc on it.

Run the macroalgae in a separate empty section on a slow tumble if you can and only harvest out the bare minimum. I find that if I harvest too much at once it sends my nitrates up.

To kill two birds with one stone in the macro section, use a Sicce Shark filter to produce the flow for the slow tumble. You can replace or cut down the foam in the media section of these filters and use them like a reactor for carbon, GFO, Chemi-pure etc. They also are compact size and very affordable. Check the Techden website for stock.

Just some suggestions.

 

[Sam Parker]

Put it this way Sam, if you as a reefer walk in look at the tank and think nope that would be hard to use as a reef tank............then it is unfit for purpose.

I could make a esky into a reef tank if I wanted to do the work, doesn't mean a esky can be sold as a reef tank.

The law looks at things as a "reasonable person" which means if as a "reasonable person" you don't think the tank is fit for a reef tank then it isn't. Fraudulent misrepresentation comes to my mind on the facts we have before us.

Problem is, this couple bought the item after looking at it themselves. Having had a marine tank already for a couple of years - you would have a strong argument that they should know what they are buying.....

Anyway, let's move forward - the tank is not going back, it will be set up.

Miracle mud sounds like a decent option actually... Will look into that now. I will talk them into dropping a bag of chemipure grande in the sump also just to help with water clarity and filtration.

Gotta keep in mind that this is a fish only tank and the couple are coming from an all in one tank that has zero filtration at all.

 

[Cokey]

If it was me, I would definitely look into the options of returning the tank. It looks like there is very limited room between the top of the sump and the stand. Long term its going to be a real pain accessing equipment and carrying out maintenance, further down the track if they decide they want to keep coral (which most of us end up doing) their options will be restricted.

 

[Sam Parker]

There is limited room in the sump.

They are not going to keep coral (they have had a tank for years already and are not interested)

The tank is not going back.

Appreciate everyone's input on this, however we want to move forward with the tank and it's known limitations.

 

[Tannum_Paul]

Moving forward then, @Agent M (nutmeg) and I were talking and external systems might be the best.

Closed loop off 1 bulkhead with pleated cartridge, external skimmer running off other bulkhead feeding into the sump which you would make a large fuge out of.

External skimmer means easy access, and a good size sucker. Plenty of pods and room for fuge. Closed loop makes easy water polishing in pleaded cartridge and flow back in the system.

If it was me I would just buy black acrylic from Bunnings and make 2 weirs. 6mm between teeth on comb at the top.