Reef Discussion

[Brekel]

Ok, so as a follow up to my previous post, I introduced a small blue tang to the tank last wednesday, and shortly thereafter noticed a small white dot on one side. It was gone a few days later, but now he and the other fish apart from the clowns (coral beauty, yellow tang) seem to be infected :(. All are eating well at the moment.

The yellow tang sleeps "downstairs" from the blue tang, and the coral beauty rests around the same area too. The ocelaris' sleep at the other end of the tank.

The yellow tang's looked a little pale of late, but a close inspection and taking photos revealed how bad he is.

As you can see below the spots on the coral beauty don't show up with frontal illumination, but lit from above he's quite bad too.

I think I'll have to pull all the fish out and treat, but my question is do you think its ich or amyloodinium? I believe that only ich responds to hyposalinity (which is gentler on fish), but both respond to copper treatment (harsher on fish). I also believe that amyloodinium can be more serious, so I don't want to treat for the wrong thing.

Coral beauty - not too obvious with frontal illumination...

...but this shot, only a few minutes later lit from a different angle, tells a different story.

The sides of the yellow tang are really bad, but apart from the fins, if you look directly side on it's actually hard to see it, he just looks pale. That's what made me think maybe 'marine velvet'. This shot taken at an angle shows the extent of it though:

He normally gets a bit skittish and doesn't pose this well.

Clowns look ok, but I believe all fish should be removed and treated, and the tank left empty.

 

[chimaera]

By no means an expert but I think it is ich. There is a good article on treatment on the wiki: http://www.thereefuge.com.au/wiki/marine-ich-cryptocaryon-irritans/

Good luck, sucks balls to get it :mad:

 

[Brekel]

Well, last night the yellow tang's spots were so tiny that without the photo it was hard to see them. This morning they're obvious and he's breathing rapidly. Better start treatment today :(

 

[Synodontis]

Good luck with them @Brekel (insert thumbs up icon here)

 

[vpreef]

Looks like velvet, hard to tell but velvet is very aggressive. Its more like a dusting of icing sugar which velvet represents on fish.

Velvet spreads very quickly too, if its ich will take a few days to show up on other fish.

Goodluck, i would get them into a copper treatment either way asap. Go slow with the copper too.

 

[MagicJ]

My guess is ich but, either way, I agree with @vpreef - this is a major infestation and a copper treatment is probably your best choice at this stage.

 

[Brekel]

Thanks guys - better see if I can find some copper treatment. @MagicJ , have you seen any at the stores down here?

 

[vpreef]

make sure you have an airstone going in the water too if your going to copper treat them.

 

[MagicJ]

Thanks guys - better see if I can find some copper treatment. @MagicJ , have you seen any at the stores down here?

Never had to look, sorry.

 

[Brekel]

Found alocal shop with "snail rid" - active ingredient copper sulphate, 1g/L copper. Doesn't say other ingredients. Anyone used thison ich?

Yellow tang wasn't his normal greedy self this morning, but is eating well now. Some of the spots on his fin are trailing on short threads - are they in the process of dropping off, or is this something else as well?

 

[MagicJ]

I wouldn't Brett - you need to be pretty precise with the dosage levels - too little and it won't achieve the desired outcome - too much and you can damage or kill your fish.

Dosages suitable for killing snails may not correspond with what you require.

 

[Brekel]

If i use a copper test kit I can check the levels and use info from reputable siteson treatment, but how accurate are test kits? And is there anything else in the medication ot kn label that could harm fish?
Its the only thing available today so its that or hyposalinity.

 

[MagicJ]

If you have a test kit then it might be worth a try - sorry, I can't offer much advice as I have never had ich in my tanks.

 

[Ian G]

Sorry but for mine, you would be absolutely nuts to deliberately introduce copper to anything except a bare tank with nothing but water in it. Even then it can be absorbed into the silicon. Copper is highly toxic to invertebrates & some fish.

The only safe & proven tecnique for eliminating marine ich is very precise hyposalinity treatment over 5-6 weeks in a hospital tank.

BTW if one fish have it then all fish have it, whether they show symptoms or not and the larval stages will be in/on your live rock but will die out if the tank is left fallow of fish..

BEFORE TREATING MARINE ICH (different to freshwater ich) YOU MUST UNDERSTAND IT'S LIFECYCLE. THE REASON THAT SO MANY PEOPLE FAIL TO ERADICATE IT AND FISH DIE, IS BECAUSE ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THE CYCLE, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND WHY MOST TREATMENTS ARE NO MORE THAN HOCUS POCUS.

Copper can work but it's a last resort (like chemo in humans) and will outright kill more critters than it will save. Copper can NEVER be used in a marine display tank.

 

[Ian G]

In case it helps at all, here's an excerpt from an article I wrote a couple of years ago.​

​

----------------------------------------​

Cryptocaryon irritans​

(Marine Ich)​

SOME FACTS & FICTIONS​

​

FACT - So called ‘marine ich’ is not the same as the freshwater disease ich (ichthyophthirius multifilis). Marine ich is not a disease at all, in fact it is a marine parasite and the very use of the name ‘marine ich’ causes confusion. (I will refer to it as crypto).

FACT – The average life cycle of crypto is 60 days. Depending on (unknown) conditions, the life cycle can be over in 7 days and has been recorded as lasting as long as 71 days. People often refer to a four week treatment plan but in truth, that is optimistic. Statistics in the aquaculture industry suggest that a treatment period of 60 days will eradicate 98%+ of all infestations.

FACT – There are NO proven reef safe remedies for crypto. Remedy manufacturers can skew results to show almost anything they want.

FACT - Copper is poisonous to fish, as are copper based treatments. It is also highly toxic to, and will result in the death of, some species of marine fish and most marine invertebrates (including anemone, shrimp, snail, worms, etc).

FACT - There are no hobby test kits (Salifert, API, etc) that can measure copper concentrations accurately enough to maintain the exact copper concentrations required to safely treat marine fish with copper. If you choose to use a copper treatment, you will be guessing at best unless you can get your water laboratory tested daily for four to six weeks. Would you want your doctor guessing how much chemo to give you?

 

[Brekel]

Don't worry, I've read extensively on it and sorted the facts from the fiction.
All fish are in a plastic quarantine tank and my preferred method is hyposalinity. I was Only considering copper (in the quarantine tank) because initially it was uncertain if the yellow tang had ich or amyloodinium.

I began hypo last night.

 

[Brekel]

And if you read the first post, I believe I addressed your concerns about treating all fish, not treating in display tank, and the harshness of copper.
But I appreciate your concern and willingness to provide input :)
It's good to be part of a community where people are willing to share their knowledge :)

PS I work in the medical arena. You'd be surprised how many decisions are based on knowledge but with a good dose of guesswork thrown in! :rollseyes:

 

[Ian G]

And if you read the first post, I believe I addressed your concerns about treating all fish, not treating in display tank, and the harshness of copper.
But I appreciate your concern and willingness to provide input :)
It's good to be part of a community where people are willing to share their knowledge :)

PS I work in the medical arena. You'd be surprised how many decisions are based on knowledge but with a good dose of guesswork thrown in! :rollseyes:

Yes but not dosages. I'm a cancer patient (brain). :)

 

[Brekel]

Sorry to hear mate. Hope it's one of the less agressive types. Undergoing treatment at the moment?
Like I said, I appreciate the willingness to share information.

 

[Ian G]

No big deal. They keep saying I'll probably die on the operating table. I keep telling them I'm not wanted in either heaven or hell and I'm staying put.

It's an HPC tumour, benign but very aggressive & with a long natural history. I was getting a tumour every couple of years (last one inside the brain stem) but I'm almost 5 years clear now after some experimental radiosurgery plus some standard radiotherapy and stereotactic radiotherapy. 49 consecutive days of treatment over christmas. That was different.:rolleyes