Reef Discussion

[mattalbs]

Hi all and good morning.
Last night I noticed my newly introduced(two weeks ago) powder blue tang has started to display white spot (ich) which means pretty much everything else in the tank is now susceptible to an outbreak. My question is....what is the best way to medicate a display tank without pulling it apart to catch my fish and quarantine them? There is absolutely no way I can move my fish and it has to be done in the DT. I have just recently begun re-scaping my tank and have about $1000 worth of sps and lps plus some rics so hyposalinity is probably not an option. I have made up a food mix of tropic-marin (immuvit) garlic elixir by eco systems mixed in with brine shrimp which I hope will boost their immune system. Am also about to re-plumb my uv into the system for extra back-up. Some options and opinions would be greatly appreciated.

My tank inhabitants are....
powder blue tang
magnificent foxface
vlamingi
pink tailed trigger
red eyed blenny
fire gobies x4
lyretail anthias x6
zebrasoma sailfin tang

My cleanup crew....
starfish x2
abalone
turbo's x about 20

 

[mattalbs]

Just noticed seachems' 'paraguard'. Supposedly reef and invert safe.
Any opinions???
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/ParaGuard.html

 

[Dave001]

I've never used Paraguard, so can't comment on it.

Is it only the Blue Tang showing symptoms? If so, you could just wait until the white spot falls off, do a couple of big water changes, making sure to siphon the substrate really well, give the fish plenty of food, and it might get over it all by itself.

I lost my whole tank to white spot a few years back, so I don't stuff around with it anymore. That's a lot of fish to loose, so I'd be quarantining, and treating, it might be a lot of work, but it's the only way to be sure. My choice of treatments for white spot is 6 weeks Hyposalinity.

 

[megsez]

Hi mattalbs ,

There are a heap of meds out there that say they are reef safe but I am yet to here of one that really works. I think in your case best cause of action is exactly what you are doing as the QT is not an option. Feed regularly with the food and garlic mix. Plump the UV in. The UV will only kill the parasite when it is in its free swimming stage of it's life cycle so it wont help what is already infected. It is more of a preventative then a treatment.

My angle got white spot a couple of times when I first got him and I just fed him flake food soaked in fresh garlic about 4 times a day to make sure he kept his strength by eating. Probably goof idea to limit your lights for a day or to to give him a chance to rest.

Sorry I cant be more help good luck

 

[Ian G]

There is NO SAFE or EFFECTIVE way to medicate a display tank. You must get, or get access to, a QT tank.

 

[mattalbs]

Cheers everybody. It looks as though the powder blue is the only fish with the symptoms @Dave001. They're all loving the food mix I've made, if anything, the powder blue is eating like an absolute pig. Just returned from my LFS who made a very good point that I had overlooked. These broad spectrum medications that offer reef safe/inverterbrate guarantees will actually kill everything in the tank you don't want dead, ie good bacteria which as we know, can lead to a massive ammonia spike effectively wiping out the tank anyways.
Although I'm well aware that a QT is the most effective way, I had no choice but to shut it down because of space issues atm. Immune boosting food, uv and large water changes seem to be my only choice for now!!!

 

[megsez]

Let us know how it goes :)

 

[Ian G]

If one fish is displaying ich, guaranteed all of your fish are carrying the parasite. Blue Tangs are usually always the first to show symptoms as they are HIGHLY susceptible to it. They are known as "ich magnets".

So by now not only all your fish will have it but various stages of the parasite will be in rock, on plants etc. The ONLY way you will EVER clear your DT of it is to leave it fallow (no fish at all) for 6wks minimum but preferably 8wks to break the parasite's life cycle.:(

 

[mattalbs]

Urgh @ijg3956. I liked you better when you weren't commenting on my thread lol :p But we're both realists by the sounds of things and I know it's (ICH) silently waiting to take over, but one thing's for sure. If I have to strip my tank one more time (three times in last 12 months) i'll be giving it away I think. I've moved my tank 8.5 x 3 x 2 twice plus stripping it the three times on top of the moves for various reasons. I had a total tank wipeout late 2011 and last year, a failed ATO which resulted in 400 litres of RO in my loungeroom. For the first time in about FOREVER, my nitrates and phosphates are below 0.1 and I've been able to sit back and look at it rather than work on it. Now ICH I'm gonna take my chances on this one............ fingers crossed

 

[megsez]

Most of us have been there before mattalbs. QT are the best way to go if you can go straight to one when you get the fish. But I still think it will be ok. Just keep them happy and fed most people out there probably have itch and just don't know it. Reefing is a bumpy ride at best and its the hard times that make it worth it when it is all going to plan.

 

[chrispc66]

Have a look at UV sterilisers. Cheap and easy to set up, and apparently kill all parasite larval stages.

Seen these setups in WA and users of UV swear it works for them. Google is your friend.

Good luck.

 

[mattalbs]

Thanks for the support @megsez. Must admit, I slept on it last night and woke up realizing I was just upset and overreacting. I definitely wont be taking it down.
@chrispc66. Cheers for that. UV and immune boosting foods are my plan of attack. The ich doesn't seem to have visibly spread to any others yet (not saying it wont) and it hasn't got any worse on the powder blue so keep those fingers crossed for me!!!

 

[Ian G]

Oh well, many people have it in their tank and don't know it until something stresses a fish and they have a big outbreak. The commercial aquaculture mobs are all moving to circular firbreglass or sometimes even perspex to eradicate ich. Seems there's a lot of anectdotal evidence that one of the parasites four stages, requires rough surfaces to cling to. Imagine how much of a headache it i for them.

 

[megsez]

Thanks for the support @megsez. Must admit, I slept on it last night and woke up realizing I was just upset and overreacting. I definitely wont be taking it down.
@chrispc66. Cheers for that. UV and immune boosting foods are my plan of attack. The ich doesn't seem to have visibly spread to any others yet (not saying it wont) and it hasn't got any worse on the powder blue so keep those fingers crossed for me!!!

Not a prob mattalbs most of us have been there before. I have threatend to put my tank down many a times for various reasons. How are they looking today?

 

[mattalbs]

Hey there @megsez. Lost three female lyretail anthias over the last 48 hours. Not sure if that's related to the ich or something else. I actually think they've been bullied by my vlamingi. As far as the powder blue goes, not much has changed. The body has less ich on it but the fins are still covered. My foxface now looks like it may have it. Not too sure %100 so just keeping an eye on things. Gonna change 150 litres today with brightwell asw and gravel clean 1/3 of the tank. See what happens!!

 

[megsez]

Hey there @megsez. Lost three female lyretail anthias over the last 48 hours. Not sure if that's related to the ich or something else. I actually think they've been bullied by my vlamingi. As far as the powder blue goes, not much has changed. The body has less ich on it but the fins are still covered. My foxface now looks like it may have it. Not too sure %100 so just keeping an eye on things. Gonna change 150 litres today with brightwell asw and gravel clean 1/3 of the tank. See what happens!!

Sorry to here about the Anthias. Did they have any signs of itch? How is the foxface and tang today?

 

[mattalbs]

@megsez Lost the school of anthias, the last one dying last night. They weren't showing any signs other than a little stress resulting from being bullied about by the older fish which is always normal IMO. But stress always leads to illness if it's in your tank so I wonder if I should've expected that??? Sadly woke this morning to find the powder blue dead with the foxface clearly showing signs of ich. Been a crappy few days that's for sure. Looks like I'm going to have to shut down my pico tank in my room to make room for a qt. Instead of trying to catch my fish to medicate them, i'll grab all of my sps/lps frags and hammers which i've been recently buying and throw them in the qt and blast the main tank with medication. I've never set up a frag/qt or dosed a dt in such a way. Do you or anybody else reading this have any tips or opinions on the whole process I'm about to undertake??

 

[Dave001]

I only know of two surefire ways to get rid of marine ich, copper or hypo.
Neither will work in a tank with live rock still in it. If you use copper, it will be near impossible to keep the levels correct with LR still in the tank, plus, your display tank will have high copper levels for the rest of it's life. Hypo can be used, but it will kill all the other organisms on your LR, most likely causing high ammonia levels, which will kill your fish anyway.

I'd be moving the fish to a bare bottom tank, and treating, I know it's a lot of work, but it really has to be done.

 

[megsez]

I only know of two surefire ways to get rid of marine ich, copper or hypo.
Neither will work in a tank with live rock still in it. If you use copper, it will be near impossible to keep the levels correct with LR still in the tank, plus, your display tank will have high copper levels for the rest of it's life. Hypo can be used, but it will kill all the other organisms on your LR, most likely causing high ammonia levels, which will kill your fish anyway.

I'd be moving the fish to a bare bottom tank, and treating, I know it's a lot of work, but it really has to be done.

+1 You beat me to it @Dave001 lol. If you are going to med removing the fish to a QT is the only way to go. Sorry to here about the fish loses unfortunately it all just one big learning curve this hobby

 

[Synodontis]

Gonna change 150 litres today with brightwell asw and gravel clean 1/3 of the tank. See what happens!!

Hey @mattabls,
I don't think we would be keen on giving the gravel a clean. This will just stir up any bad stuff in there which could stress your livestock even more. One of the stages of Ich is dormant in the substrate, stirring this up may just release more into the water column & attack the livestock harder then normal. This may be a reason your losing fish? If you had a UV unit that could treat the water column once disturbed, this maybe a better way.
Good luck with it, let us know how you get on. If you a hand with anything just yell out :)