Reef Discussion

[joey13]

Good Evening,

I currently have a 180L Saltwater Quarantine system running at the moment fully stocked with fish. I have been planning to use Seachem Cupramine as a preventative treatment. I have been somewhat nervous about using this product which is why I think I made this terrible mistake.

I had planned to increase the Cupramine level to 0.5mg/l by making 0.1mg/l increments daily. Somewhere along the line I have converted the daily amount required (1.84ml) into drops and reached a figure of 36 drops. Instead of dosing 36 drops, I dosed 36ml!

The only reason I picked up the error is because I tested the Copper level about 15 minutes later using the Seachem: Copper Multitest where I realised my error.

Never have I panicked more in my life and I frantically performed a 125L (70%) water change with NSW immediately and at the same time I put a 100ml bag of Cuprisorb into the Canister filter. Luckily I had received a 1,000L NSW delivery that morning and the IBC had copped the morning sun! Previously the tank was ASW so I didn't really want to push more of a water change given I had no idea how different the NSW is to the water they have been swimming in for the past 3 weeks.

I am not entirely sure how Cupramine works as far as dosing goes but I calculated that I dosed nearly 4 times the 0.5mg/l amount which would have temporarily had the level at 1.96 mg/l. A 70% change alone should bring it down to just under 0.6mg/l which is obviously still high.

The fish all seem fine for the moment and are still swimming and eating normally and that saga ended about 3.5 hours ago.

My question is how fast does Cuprisorb take to work and do you have a rough idea on how long it would take for 100ml Cuprisorb to absorb 0.6mg/l of Cupramine in 180L of water if my calculations and theory is correct? As I said, I do not know if it works in that way.

It is sitting in a Canister filter media tray on it's own and the Canister flows at 1,300LPH which is roughly 7x tank turnover per hour.

I am thinking I should perform another change? What percentage would you suggest?

Your assistance is greatly appreciated.

Rookie mistake! I feel terrible and very stressed right now.

 

[Agent M]

I am thinking I should perform another change? What percentage would you suggest?

I can't answer your other questions, but as the fish aren't in quarantine because they are sick, I would do a 100% water change, take the fish out and acclimatise them to the new water, then observe for a few days to make sure they haven't been poisoned. Once you know you are in the clear, resume your treatment.

 

[joey13]

I can't answer your other questions, but as the fish aren't in quarantine because they are sick, I would do a 100% water change, take the fish out and acclimatise them to the new water, then observe for a few days to make sure they haven't been poisoned. Once you know you are in the clear, resume your treatment.

I've already done the 70% change so that is not very practical. The fish are showing no signs of distress at all and are all eating and swimming about. I think the very early intervention and the Cuprisorb taking quick effect and a massive amount of luck have saved me here.

 

[Agent M]

A high dose of copper, no matter the length of exposure, can affect the fish vital body organs such as liver and kidneys. You may be in the clear after the steps you have taken, or you may not - you can only guess.

I wouldn't continue to expose them to copper at any level - even in small, normally 'safe' amounts. This will give them some time to flush any toxins from their system. But its up to you.

 

[MagicJ]

Why were you aiming for 0.5mg/l? This is way above the level required to eliminate Cryptocaryon, for example, and is likely to have caused permanent damage to the fish even withput the overdose. Damage occours to the gills, liver, kidney, immune system, and nervous system.

Not sure what Cuprisorb is, but carbon will remove copper.

What fish were in the tank, as some are more susceptible to copper than others.

 

[Buddy]

I always thought 0.5 is what you should aim for, with 0.8 being toxic.

 

[Agent M]

Cupramine is a milder copper treatment, he's referring to the quantity added of the product @MagicJ @Buddy

 

[Agent M]

From the Seachem website:

"Cupramine™ effectively eradicates Oodinium, Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium, Ichthyophthirius, and other ectoparasites of both freshwater and marine fish. It is superior to copper sulfate, chloride & citrate: it is non-acidic, less toxic to fish, remains in solution, and does not contaminate the filter bed. It is superior to chelates: it is fully charged (ionic), active at low concentrations, and is removable with carbon.

Why It's Different
There is more than a four-fold concentration gap between the minimal therapeutic dose (0.2 mg/L) and the toxic dose (0.8 mg/L). Cupramine™ is easily removable with chemical filtration. It is highly effective and safe in freshwater as well as marine water."

 

[ezza]

Copper (copper sulfate/copper citrate/ cupramine): Copper is a metal ion which is also basically a poison to any organism at a high enough concentration. Copper treats most external protozoan and flatworm parasites. It is not very effective against crustacean parasites (parasitic isopods/copepods and the fish lice argulus/branchiurans) or marine leeches. Copper is generally run at .2 ppm and only the salifert test kit we have found for the hobby level can accurately tell you where the levels are at within a respectable range. (API, red sea, Seachem don't seem accurate enough or the colors are too close). Fish in general become lethargic and anorexic around .4-.6 ppm with copper sulfate and copper citrate and around .6-.8 for cupramine. Some fish, such as seahorses/mandarins/lionfish/dwarf angelfishes/any already stressed or sick fish, are hypersensitive to copper though we have pretty reliably treated those species with cupramine. A very important note: Do not use ammonia binding compounds (amquel/prime) when using cupramine (and it’s unclear about the other coppers but why risk it) but it turns the active copper 2+ ion to the more toxic copper 1+. This same mechanism happens when using a UV sterilizer with cupramine and so it is imperative to turn those off when treating. Reports and personal experience of copper overdoses include lethargy (fish acting dull, agitated, and unresponsive) anorexia (fish not eating), and even neurological signs like blindness. We have seen a temporarily blinded powder blue tang and a regal angelfish on separate occasions from copper overdose. Another important warning when using cupramine is that the dosing directions on the bottle are not clear about the therapeutic dose. They explain dosing in terms of what volume to add to get to .5 ppm, however this dose is not necessary and actually getting close to a dangerous level for some fish. Therapeutic levels to treat most protozoan parasites is .2 ppm (.18 actually) so copper levels including cupramine should ideally be kept around .25-.3 ppm.

http://www.healthyaquatics.com/treatment-parasites

This seems sort of helpful. From the info available, just chucking carbon in will help remove the copper.

 

[joey13]

0.5mg/l is the reccomended and effective dose Magic so not sure where you got that info.

Fish all appear normal this morning. Nil signs of stress at all. All swimming and eating well!

I'll do a test later on today and see if the Cuprisorb has done its job.

 

[suta42]

What was your latest seachem test kit reading? Not sure whether permanent damage has been done to the fish from the overdose or not (something to keep in mind). :(

Cuprisorb and polyfilter are definitely the best way to remove all traces of copper, but even in a canister filter can take a while to work. Test very regularly since cupramine is a lot less toxic to the fish but the amount you put in was over the top.

Also don't use drops - use mLs for an accurate dose; the dosage is on the bottle. Aim for 0.5 and don't ramp up too slowly. The minimum dose of 0.2 is useless for any persistent cases of MI.


Good luck!

PS I replied to your initial post a few weeks ago about using cupramine on RTAW. Please keep in mind what I wrote as plenty can still go wrong using cupramine.

 

[ReeferRob]

If it was only a 15 minute event, I don't think there's much to worry about and the fact that you did a WC that large that fast is good. Keep an eye on them just to be safe.

 

[Ian3145]

If you dosed copper into your DT then you have killed all your inverts and the live rock will leach copper for years. Copper should NEVER be used in anything but a quarantine tank. Expect massive die offs and a new cycle. Sorry but that is evil stuff IMO.

 

[ReeferRob]

If you dosed copper into your DT then you have killed all your inverts and the live rock will leach copper for years. Copper should NEVER be used in anything but a quarantine tank. Expect massive die offs and a new cycle. Sorry but that is evil stuff IMO.

It's already been established that he used it in a quarantine tank Ian.

 

[octo]

Sounds like you acted fast enough. 4x dose- i understand the panic and it was very luck you had the fsw ready to go. Which test kit are you using? I'm running cupramine atm in hospital tank. First time and a bit nerve wracking.

 

[MagicJ]

0.5mg/l is the reccomended and effective dose Magic so not sure where you got that info.

I admit to not being overly familiar with the effects of copper on marine fish - this document http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa165 talks about a target concentration of 0.15–0.20 mg/L Cu2+ which is a lot less than the 0.5mg/L that was mentioned in the original post.

And this one http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/10/breeder talks about 60% of Flame Angels exposed to 0.25mg/L level dying within the first 12 hours of exposure.

@Agent M, maybe Cupramine is a 'milder' copper treatment - although that doesn't make any sense to me as you are still measuring the level of copper in the water, not how much of the product you put into the water to achieve that level of copper - does that make sense :)

Anyway, I hope the fish are unaffected....

 

[joey13]

There is a big difference between chelated copper and Cupramine.

It has been used safely for years with no ill effects.

Luckily for me I realised within the first 10-15 minutes and it probably hadn't had the chance to fully mix through.

It is being used in a bare glass bottom QT tank and I am fully aware that it is toxic to inverts. I know that this mistake seems rather silly but believe it or not, I have done extensive research on using the product. I just had a brain lapse.

I am using Seachem:Copper test kit which is said to be the most accurate for Cupramine. I will test shortly and update you with the result.

It has nearly been 24 hours and all fish still doing really well and do not seem to be suffering at all.

I will let the Cuprisorb run for another week to be absolutely sure and I'll start over. This time a little more carefully.

 

[suta42]

If the fish are eating as per usual, then that's a good sign and I understand you may be nervous as this is your first time using it.

Good news is that Cupramine is a highly effective copper treatment provided you're proactive and not reactive when things go wrong. :( many years ago I used other forms of copper which were far more toxic, had very little margin for error and killed fish almost as often as they cured the disease. :(

Fwiw when I use it I have it premixed before fish are added as it's far easier on the fish. If you don't then you must use strong flow to ensure rapid mixing. Otherwise the gills can be damaged. once you reach 0.5 mg/L you'll notice the bacteria are not keeping up.ie they are in stasis. (ammonia or nitrite are present). Theres a good chance that you'll lose fish to ammonia if you're not testing for it twice daily, simply because there are so many inhabitants. Might be worth being extra vigilant about that :)


HTH and GL.

 

[Agent M]

I know that this mistake seems rather silly but believe it or not, I have done extensive research on using the product. I just had a brain lapse.

I'm not thinking it was silly, I've had a few brain lapses myself. We all have those moments ;)

Sorry @MagicJ not sure how to phrase things sometimes - a different form of copper? Chemistry is not one of my strong points

 

[joey13]

If the fish are eating as per usual, then that's a good sign and I understand you may be nervous as this is your first time using it.

Good news is that Cupramine is a highly effective copper treatment provided you're proactive and not reactive when things go wrong. :( many years ago I used other forms of copper which were far more toxic, had very little margin for error and killed fish almost as often as they cured the disease. :(

Fwiw when I use it I have it premixed before fish are added as it's far easier on the fish. If you don't then you must use strong flow to ensure rapid mixing. Otherwise the gills can be damaged. once you reach 0.5 mg/L you'll notice the bacteria are not keeping up.ie they are in stasis. (ammonia or nitrite are present). Theres a good chance that you'll lose fish to ammonia if you're not testing for it twice daily, simply because there are so many inhabitants. Might be worth being extra vigilant about that :)


HTH and GL.

Thanks for the tips mate.

I'm led to believe that this is not necessarily the case.

Something in Cupramine throws off the ammonia testing kits and gives a false positive?

From the Seachem website:

A: Ammonia test kits can not distinguish ammonia from the amine based complex present in Cupramine™ and will therefore give a false high reading for ammonia while using Cupramine™. Our Ammonia Alert™ and MultiTest: Free & Total Ammonia™ test kit do not suffer from this problem as they utilize a gas exchange technology that can distinguish ammonia from amines.