Reef Discussion

[potatocouch]

I want to understand fish temperament in practice.

If I put 2 fish, different type and say both are listed as peaceful in live aquaria, does that mean they will never ever fight each other?

In other words, are we saying that peaceful fish does not maintain territory in an aquarium?

 

[Dean Lovett]

I believe that tags like "peaceful" "moderately aggressive" aren't correct.

Fish behave differently depending on the size of your tank, their sex, how well fed they are, whether they have a tendency to develop a territory and so on.

For me, I have a ocellaris clown, known to be aggressive, which is best friends with my bicolour blenny known to be peaceful. But should I put my hand in the tank, the clown fish is ferocious, so it's aggressive to me but not to other inhabitants, although it watches my peppermint shrimps with the keenest of looks but I had never attacked.

It's the same with cichlids. They are all aggressive but they can get on well with each other, they can dish it out and take it.

And with regards to never ever fight.... I'm a peaceful guy but i might one day fight someone. So while a fish might be peaceful it still might fight, albeit rarely.

I guess that's the way I look at it. And there is some text and credibility on introducing the fish that you expect to be less aggressive first to the tank so it can establish its territory you might find it can deal properly with an aggressive like fish, when it's later added.

But I really believe fish temperament, comes down to your tank, other inhabitants, its territory, it's sex and so on.

Although so species are genuinely pure rotten. But that's why you keep them in their own tank!

 

[potatocouch]

But I really believe fish temperament, comes down to your tank, other inhabitants, its territory, it's sex and so on.

@Dean Lovett If I read understand your opinion properly, does that mean that no one really knows what is going to happen and best we (human) can do is do research, put fish in sequence (by their temperament) and hope for the best?

Say that I introduce a Blenny and a Goby, there still a slight chance that they may not be compatible?

Anyone else want to chime in?

 

[ReeferRob]

What you have to realize is fish are the way they are for a reason. They've exploited a niche in an ecosystem and it's not likely that their behavior is going to change in a captive environment.
Tangs are grazers, Powder Blues are grazers and farmers, that is they protect a patch of the reef that they feed on. Dottybacks are the way they are because they are so small, you have to be one tough mofo out there on the reef or you'll be the next meal for something bigger. They defend a territory because it's their hiding place. I was hoping that with so many being captive bred now that that might become a little less, but it's not.

Your tang is NOT the issue potatocouch, that damn dottyback is. I sell the hell out of them and people keep on bitching about them being assholes.

I lived and died to have a Sunshine dottyback, P. flavivertix and as Operation Desert Storm ended I went back to Israel for a few weeks. I went to Eliat for holiday and started diving, diving and the ocean has always been my relief valve. I watched a pair of Sunshines for the better part of a week. Right before I left, I collected them and 6 rocks of Pom Pom Xenia, 3 juvenile Emporer angels, 2 small Regal angels, 3 small Purple tangs and hauled ass for base to catch a flight home. When I got home I acclimated them into my system and then the shit hit the fan. The Sunshines immediately went on the offensive and chased the Purple tangs damn near to death. So I trapped them the same way I did when I caught them. I got them out the next day and peace returned to my tank. you'd think with 8' of space and nobody trying to eat you they'd settle in, but it wasn't to be. Everything else lived to a ripe old age, I sold the pair for $250 and never batted an eye. Don't get me wrong, I love their colouration, but the attitude annoys me to no end and I won't have that level of aggression in a tank. I've probably kept 20 or so different species of Pseudochromis and they're all assholes. The larger Indo ones are the worst because they have attitude AND size backing them up.

 

[Azedenkae]

To start off, LiveAquaria isn't reliable anyways, so basing stuff like this on info on that site can be bad.

But in general, yes if two 'peaceful' species are placed together, they won't care. Hence why they are listed as 'peaceful'. But it all comes down to what Dean said - it depends on tank size, tank environment, scape, individual personalities and more.

 

[potatocouch]

Your tang is NOT the issue potatocouch, that damn dottyback is. I sell the hell out of them and people keep on bitching about them being assholes.

But in the case with my YT and Orchid, the Orchid is the one being bullied and eventually gone and no where to be seen and it has been almost 3 weeks now. I can safely declared it's dead.

Yellow Tang is the aggressor.

 

[suta42]

To start off, LiveAquaria isn't reliable anyways, so basing stuff like this on info on that site can be bad.

But in general, yes if two 'peaceful' species are placed together, they won't care. Hence why they are listed as 'peaceful'. But it all comes down to what Dean said - it depends on tank size, tank environment, scape, individual personalities and more.

Agree LA is not a comprehensive guide and don't think it's meant to be. If you can ignore the geographical generalisations and accept one size doesn't fit all, then the guidelines are usually okay for new hobbyists. And thats all most people want when starting out: some generic guidelines so that they can enjoy the hobby and hopefully limit the livestock casualties as they go. If you have a better site that you could recommend that would be great. Otherwise the best info comes from successful first hand experiences and books to understand the preferred habitat, behaviour and interaction with other fish..But again most people just want a summary of 'will it work?'. With that in mind I think LA is ok.

Getting back to the original post, I think the easiest way to successfully stock smaller systems is to stock like with like ie bullies with bullies, passive types together, and choose hardy species not delicate ones. When you start mixing fish that share a similar niche or compete for the same foods, then the waters become murkier.

This is especially true with feeding as a lot of people underfeed or don't feed properly, leading to aggression from an otherwise tolerant species. Eg some tangs. The other big issue is juveniles vs adults. Often the same species undergoes behavioural changes during its development and there are also many disadvantages to buying large adults of a species. These are most likely to adapt poorly to captive conditions IME.

I agee with Rob too; I don't like dotty backs on the whole, considering the other fish I keep. But afaik the locally bred orchids are nowhere near as aggressive as their wild caught counterparts. Whether this changes with maturity...honestly don't know. But unless you want to add firefish or similar more timid niche competitors then the dottyback may not be a major issue. Just my thoughts and YMMV.

Hth and GL!

 

[Azedenkae]

@suta42: Agreed, for general guidelines and basic info LA is okay. I don't have alternatives that are easy to navigate, so I guess LA will do.

I mean, generally I do use either the AIMS or ARKive database for corals, along with WoRMS for fish, but the information tends to take some navigation. But it's so much more reliable.

 

[ReeferRob]

You had 2 aggressive fish in there. I'd be willing to bet that the Orchid started it and the Yellow tang finished it. Smaller tanks create issues with aggression, especially with tangs. When they can't be free roaming, asshole mode gets engaged more often than not. When I get Powder Blues in, they're in a 2x2 pen for the first 24 hours and if they're showing signs of cage anxiety, I release them all into the system. If a tang is pacing up and down or side to side in a tank, disaster isn't too far away.

Same with clowns, Bonnie and Clyde, M's Perculas are asshats to the Royal Gramma. he's getting bigger and he isn't taking their crap as much as he did when we first got him.

You have to make a decision with fish and the size of your aquarium. Just because there are 22 gazillion fish per square metre on the reef doesn't mean you can do the same in a small aquarium. They have no place to retreat to when the aggression gets out of hand. Watch how a fish acts in the dealer's tanks, all the web sites in the world can't make up for watching and learning how fish interact with one another.

 

[Ian3145]

Frankly the descriptions are loose at best, it all depends on the individual fish, the species mix and the tank environment. Australian Stripeys are called reef safe but they destroyed half my corals and a few fish. Others have had similar issues.

When it says reef compatible with caution, I translate that as "only if you are foolhardy" :)

 

[suta42]

I guess the stripeys mentioned above are a good example.
LA classifies them as not reef safe and I suspect most of the time that would be right. These omnivores are, IMO behaviour wise essentially temperate butterflys.

Now any generalist butterfly is almost certainly a high risk in a reef tank, if not as small juveniles then almost always as adults. That's why they are easy to keep compared to the obligate hard corallivores.ie they will eat anything in a diverse environment and also are unlikely to be fed enough several times a day to minimise their destructive behaviour. But that comes with its own water quality issues. So for the OP, I'd avoid fish like these simply because of the high risk associated with them.

The other thing you need to be careful of is well intended dodgey advice that's freely offered by anyone and everyone online. As I said, not much compensates for first hand experience with successful long term mixing of species.

As usual jm2c

 

[ReeferRob]

I've had no end of large angels in reef tanks for years and never had an issue with them. Others cringe at the thought. I would put a Regal, Emporer, Annularis, Blue Face or Majestic in a reef tank before I'd put one of the Centropyges in. Too many times I've had to trap one because it started picking at corals.

 

[potatocouch]

so when they say foxface is peaceful ... doesn't mean it'll be peaceful in my tank ...

I will need to do further research.

 

[ReeferRob]

They also say it'll pick at LPS corals, something I've yet to see. If anyone here has seen this behavior I'd sure like to hear about it. In my experience, Foxface are very skittish and will generally retreat when there is aggression.

 

[potatocouch]

Foxface are very skittish and will generally retreat when there is aggression.

peace peace peace green peace