Reef Discussion

Mantis Dundee

Member
Jun 24, 2013
136
32
Quakers Hill
Sick Lipstick Tang
Hi all,
Got a Lipstick Tang, about 18-20cm long. It stopped eating yesterday and has been having these funny twitches with lips and fins. Just the same as if us humans get a random twitch in our muscles from time to time. Today it is far less active than normal and still having intermittent twitches. It is just hovering in certain places instead of swimming actively back and forth as usual. Also appears to possibly be a little bloated around the belly. There are no marks or wounds or anything visible on body. We did notice on Sunday it done a poo which was like an explosion that turned my whole tank mirky for a little while, there was so much of it. It is fairly distressing for me, as this is my favourite fish and main attraction of the tank.
All water parameters are normal, only thing was slightly low was alk at 6dkh. I have since done partial water change and added a bit of buffer for alk.
Anybody got any ideas what could be going on???
@Dr. Schell
 

Agent M

Member
Oct 21, 2011
3,536
1,586
Melbourne
How is the tang going @Mantis Dundee ?? Have you been able to get any advice from someone knowledgeable? I am not sure how to help here but I wanted to reply to you. What crossed my mind is that it could be marine protozoans in the fish gut (parasites). I have a book about them but have never gotten around to reading it. If I get a chance to have a look at it tonight I'll see if it has any useful info in it for you or not.

When my seahorse was sick, I self-diagnosed the problem & needed to take him to a vet to get meds. They then rang Melbourne Aquarium to get advice over the phone & they were excellent. That is an option if you want to go down that path.
 

Mantis Dundee

Member
Jun 24, 2013
136
32
Quakers Hill
How is the tang going @Mantis Dundee ?? Have you been able to get any advice from someone knowledgeable? I am not sure how to help here but I wanted to reply to you. What crossed my mind is that it could be marine protozoans in the fish gut (parasites). I have a book about them but have never gotten around to reading it. If I get a chance to have a look at it tonight I'll see if it has any useful info in it for you or not.

When my seahorse was sick, I self-diagnosed the problem & needed to take him to a vet to get meds. They then rang Melbourne Aquarium to get advice over the phone & they were excellent. That is an option if you want to go down that path.
My LFS suggested doing a fresh water dip. It is day 3 now he still not eating. Definitely looks a little bloated and gills appear to be panting. Lips are still constantly opening and closing, only closes about half way. Im going to try the dip
 

riley

Member
Apr 25, 2013
371
112
GYMEA BAY
i also ring the public aquariums always very helpful must be a lot of bored marine biologists with nothing better to do. sorry for being no help hope your fish pulls through. id be worried that a FW dip mite not kill a parasite in the stomach.
 

Agent M

Member
Oct 21, 2011
3,536
1,586
Melbourne
I agree with @riley, I think if it was external parasites you wouldn't have bloating and lethargy, you would instead see him scraping himself on rocks etc. I also think loss of appetite would be less likely. FW dip won't help if the parasites are internal - he will need meds instead to kill them.

FW dip is something you can do for him at home yourself though - so I don't necessarily think it isn't worth a try. I would be worried about putting him through all of that stress for nothing though as that could kill him. If you do go ahead with the freshwater dip, I suggest putting one to two drops of Bach's Rescue Remedy in the water - its a completely safe herbal relaxant. You get it off the shelf at the chemist.
 

Mantis Dundee

Member
Jun 24, 2013
136
32
Quakers Hill
i also ring the public aquariums always very helpful must be a lot of bored marine biologists with nothing better to do. sorry for being no help hope your fish pulls through. i.d be worried that a FW dip mite not kill a parasite in the stomach.
Yeh I was not too sure about the dip either considering it seems intestinal, but thought I would give it ago rather than standing back and do nothing to see my fish die. Anyway, I swear he knew I was gonna get him. Usually so friendly, will eat from my hand and when ever Im doing stuff in tank swims up and sticky beaks. This time I touched the lids and he went into panic hiding. I tried but there was no way of catching without completely dismantling my reef. Not gonna happen. So I will just cross my fingers and hope for best and keep water quality pristine (always do anyway) but you know. Hmmmmm hate looking through the glass and being powerless
 

Mantis Dundee

Member
Jun 24, 2013
136
32
Quakers Hill
I agree with @riley, I think if it was external parasites you wouldn't have bloating and lethargy, you would instead see him scraping himself on rocks etc. I also think loss of appetite would be less likely. FW dip won't help if the parasites are internal - he will need meds instead to kill them.

FW dip is something you can do for him at home yourself though - so I don't necessarily think it isn't worth a try. I would be worried about putting him through all of that stress for nothing though as that could kill him. If you do go ahead with the freshwater dip, I suggest putting one to two drops of Bach's Rescue Remedy in the water - its a completely safe herbal relaxant. You get it off the shelf at the chemist.
What sort of meds? You mean as in the non reef and invert safe treatments that you add to water? These are not an option because I have a lot of coral and inverts. I can not remove him without completely tearing down display and I do not have a large enough quarantine for this guy anyway.
Does anybody think there could be a chance that if it is an internal parasite it may run its course and get past it in time on his own? If there was a fish in my tank I would back to survive something it would be this one. Apart from the immediate problem he is a big healthy strong fish living in quality water parameters.
 

riley

Member
Apr 25, 2013
371
112
GYMEA BAY
i know this is on the cruel side but most tangs are quite easy to catch except blue tangs that sleep under rocks..... wait til they go to bed like 3-4 hours after the lights go out then get your net ready and turn your lights back on full. the tang will act dazed for like 30-60 secs more then enof time to catch him can catch him by hand if u wanted. guess that why they banned light for spearfishing

u can use a large storage tubs from k mart as a QT. i think i payed 10-15 for mine the ones that u can slide under your bed should be enof room and when your done u can hide its under your bed and put old uni book ull never read again in it.

if i had to guess id say ether blockage or a parasite wouldn't be the swim balder as he isn't struggling to stay up right. but the panting and twitches of lips are signs of a parasite under in the gills or maybe stress but i'm no expert.

you don't dose lanthanum do you? could explain all the symptoms
 

Mantis Dundee

Member
Jun 24, 2013
136
32
Quakers Hill
i know this is on the cruel side but most tangs are quite easy to catch except blue tangs that sleep under rocks..... wait til they go to bed like 3-4 hours after the lights go out then get your net ready and turn your lights back on full. the tang will act dazed for like 30-60 secs more then enof time to catch him can catch him by hand if u wanted. guess that why they banned light for spearfishing

u can use a large storage tubs from k mart as a QT. i think i payed 10-15 for mine the ones that u can slide under your bed should be enof room and when your done u can hide its under your bed and put old uni book ull never read again in it.
if i had to guess i.d say ether blockage or a parasite wouldn't be the swim balder as he isn't struggling to stay up right. but the panting and twitches of lips are signs of a parasite under in the gills or maybe stress but i'm no expert.

you don't dose lanthanum do you? could explain all the symptoms
I don't know what lanthanum is so I would have to say no. Only dose reef trace, reef plus, iodide and no3po4
Thanks for the catching tip. Yes agree, does seem cruel but sounds effective and ultimately to help him out so not cruel at all I guess
 

Agent M

Member
Oct 21, 2011
3,536
1,586
Melbourne
What sort of meds?
I am thinking that the info I have pasted below fits with the symptoms, but I feel the need to make clear that I've done a google job here & I know nothing about fish ailments so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. Hoping it will help you problem solve as you are the one observing the fish first hand:

"Hole-in-the-head disease is commonly associated with tangs (and angelfishes), but relatively little is known about what it is, what causes it and how to effectively treat it....
Hole-in-the-head disease is believed to be caused by a flagellated parasite that occurs commonly in the gastrointestinal tracts of health marine fish. When populations of this parasite grow too large, infested fish will lose their coloration and their appetite. They will act abnormal (e.g., a tang sulking in a dark corner of the tank) and their fecal matter may become white and slimy in appearance. Pitting of the flesh on the fish’s head is also sometimes observed (hence the name), but the overgrowth of these parasites usually occurs in the intestinal tract.

If you suspect hole-in-the-head disease, it is recommended to remove the fish to a quarantine tank where it can be nursed back to health. In the quarantine tank, metronidazole can be added to the water at a concentration recommended by the drug manufacturer. Seachem makes a widely available product containing metronidazole called AquaZole. There are other options including the human drug Flagyl.
http://www.bluezooaquatics.com/resources.asp?show=378

Also my book on Marine Protozoa wasn't very helpful, but an interesting tidbit I read was that when bacterial protozoa colonise and reproduce in large numbers on a fish skin & gills, it causes increased respiration or panting.

Does anybody think there could be a chance that if it is an internal parasite it may run its course and get past it in time on his own? If there was a fish in my tank I would back to survive something it would be this one. Apart from the immediate problem he is a big healthy strong fish living in quality water parameters.
I do think this is possible IF you can get the tang to eat & get the animals digestive process operating properly again - choosing this option is a gamble with no way to know how it will turn out because you don't know how numerous any parasites are right now, if thats the problem. Also I'm not sure how long a fish can safely go without food before it becomes weak. However, First you want to clear or flush out the gut to reduce inflammation and push through any food sitting in there that can cause gassy buildup and/or blockages (imagine last weeks lunch still stewing in your stomach/intestines & the gas acts like a cork). If you can manage this, you will see all of the nasty stuff coming out, then it will stop and appetite should return. You won't see any poop for a while after eating resumes, and then when you do, it should look normal. Thats how you know normal digestion has resumed and the fish is getting the most nutrition out of its food. That gives its body a chance to operate properly and fight off ailments. I go through this process all of the time with wildlife rescue as many of them can't digest food properly due to dehydration, so I know how and what to use to do it for certain animals, but have never done this for a fish. I can't even begin to think how to go about it because the tang isn't eating, the only method of treatment that leaves you is some kind of soak. I have two ideas - but they really are just me trying to apply the same basic idea as what I have been taught (in a backyard first aid kinda way!) to fish - so I have no idea what exactly it is that they will achieve, just that they are harmless options.

The first is food: I was thinking offering an oily food soaked in garlic might entice it to eat a little and the lubrication will help anything in the gut to be pushed through. You could add a tiny drop of vegetable oil to the food to make it oily.

The second is hyposalinity treatment: In QT only, gradually lowering the salt gravity to 1.009 as suggested in the link below. You need to follow the instructions of how to do it carefully though as if you don't the fish could be killed:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?144242-A-general-guide-to-Hyposalinity
My thinking is mainly that by doing this you are expanding the cells in the tang's body - so it could be the equivalent to 'hydrating' it while it is sick and, as it says in the article, it will also reduce stress which is crucial IMO.
If I am wrong about that, at best, it will possibly break the life cycle of anything parasitic.
 
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Mantis Dundee

Member
Jun 24, 2013
136
32
Quakers Hill
27/9/13 RIP Stephen. I know stupid name for a fish, but a family joke. Devestating! :cry
Update with further details about last couple of days when I feel ready sometime over the next week. Cant believe my mate is gone. My wife and I are in tears literally. Feel weak, crying over a fish but he was our mate.

Special thanks to Agent M for all your efforts in research
 
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Mantis Dundee

Member
Jun 24, 2013
136
32
Quakers Hill
Here is my reply to someone else thread with a sick Lipstick, just easier to copy/paste than re-type.
Mine stopped eating on Monday and was less active, by Tuesday he was mostly just hovering in same spot and panting heavily and having twitches. Wednesday I decided to try and remove to do a fresh water bath. I failed, could not get him out with out dismantling my reef so I gave up and decided to see if he would improve. Thursday I came home and was panting heavier, further to this I now noticed a few white flaky looking things hanging off the side around gills and pectoral fins. I had no time to dismantle reef and removal due to family arrangements. I raced off and bought a cleaner wrasse. My redline died couple of weeks ago. He started working on it straight away. Today I came home and panting was even more rapid and my mate was hanging right down half way into a cave with the cleaner wrasse going crazy on him, I now could see black dots over the rear of fish, not raised but just medium sized like black poker dots. After a couple of hours he moved into the cave. I had my freshwater bath set up with ph and temp all matched. I tried to poke something into cave to spook him out so I could net him. He barely moved and I ended up just pulling him out with my hands by the tip of his tail. I put him in fresh water bath and he was very active in there. Put back into tank and the white spots and marks on flesh were horrible. They just came out like chicken pox or something. He was very active for 15 mins and cleaner wrasse was stuck to him like glue. Then he very rapidly went down hill and died. :cry I thought after the bath there was hope because he seemed better, however I think this may have been adrenalin. I am not sure but I think my mate had itch and just did not show the marks until it was well advanced. I have had itch in my system for a long time and never had a problem, fish have kept eating and just not been bothered by it, perhaps this time the parasite was just in a bad spot. Who knows, I am no expert might not have been itch.
Anyway my biggest regret is that perhaps I should have persisted and acted earlier with the fresh water bath, or quarantine if you have the facilities available and then medicate. I can not stress enough that you need to act ASAP. Get some advice, make a decision and go with it. Deep down I know I did the best I could for my guy given my work and family commitments I could not act as early as I would have liked, but I had a go I still feel like I failed him though:(. When I bathed him he was already going to die within hours anyway so if anything I made or break. Gave him the opportunity to possibly survive or, what eventuated was he passed quiker and less painfully. (I think)
Good Luck, sincerely hope yours pulls through.;)
P.s. I have made a pact with myself that I will not buy any further stock until I have a UV steriliser, people I know have them swear by them.