Reef Discussion

IJG3145

Member
Oct 27, 2015
442
162
South Gippsland
I agree with this , you nailed it.
Water changes will diminish the problem and its effects (as long as they are not the source) but they still don't deal with the root cause unfortunately. Unless the tests are faulty, those are unnaturally large numbers for the way the tank appears to be setup and run. The tank just doesn't seem to have the obvious symptoms of huge nitrates and nutrients so I'm really thinking it's time for independent testing in case we're at least to some degree, chasing a phantom.

A few years ago I had a tank crash that turned out to be caused by heavy metals from decaying frag rack magnets on a 6 month old frag rack (Capt Salty's brand). In trying to get to the real cause I paid a couple of hundred dollars to have my water tested at a lab. It was scary how far hobby test results varied from professional ones, especially when it came to phosphorus (not phosphate although similar), iron, chloramines, iodine & nitrates.
 

slin1977

Member
Jul 13, 2011
3,476
1,661
Sydney
Water changes will diminish the problem and its effects (as long as they are not the source) but they still don't deal with the root cause unfortunately. Unless the tests are faulty, those are unnaturally large numbers for the way the tank appears to be setup and run. The tank just doesn't seem to have the obvious symptoms of huge nitrates and nutrients so I'm really thinking it's time for independent testing in case we're at least to some degree, chasing a phantom.

A few years ago I had a tank crash that turned out to be caused by heavy metals from decaying frag rack magnets on a 6 month old frag rack (Capt Salty's brand). In trying to get to the real cause I paid a couple of hundred dollars to have my water tested at a lab. It was scary how far hobby test results varied from professional ones, especially when it came to phosphorus (not phosphate although similar), iron, chloramines, iodine & nitrates.
I don't see how you could be adding nitrate to your tank with make up water as mentioned a few times.
Could you give me an example pls.

Here in Sydney there are no nitrates in our water pipes as we have what is called water treatment.
If you are not using a RO filter as the first step to water filtration on site then there is no point keeping a reef type aquarium.
Nitrates can be dealt with effectively by using one of these techniques listed. Dilution, chemical or biological.

I use only one brand (Salifert)of test kit and that brand works just fine for my needs. (Mg, Ca, Kh,No3, K, Iodine) For phosphate I use Hanna.
I don't see your point in trying to get a ultra accurate nitrate test as mentioned on other posts when the test kit I use tests very accurately between 0 and 50 ppm

A reputable test kit wil do just fine , unless the operator is colour blind then digital display would be a better option.
 
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Susan Bates

Member
Jan 18, 2015
880
117
Not really, I just study a lot. Actually stuff it, might as well let it all hang out. Sometimes I 'feels the need' and it's been some years since I explained why I'm weird. Please don't bother responding re the medical stuff, after all this time it's a little boring. This stupid tumour/cancer doesn't get that giving up is not in me.

I have a rare (in adults) form of brain tumour that is highly aggressive and I've been the prime test subject for new treatments in Australia, that are just now becoming widely available here 7 years after the initial clinical trials were done on me at the William Buckland Centre (Melb) & St Vincents (Melb) in 2008 & 2009. I'm currently the longest known survivor of multiple Malignant Hemangiopericytomain in an adult and in the last trial I spent 49 consecutive days (about two hours each day) in a fibreglass upper body sarcophagus being treated with a then new form of radiation treatment that included laser radiation surgery along with the more common Stereotactic radiotherapy and normal radiotherapy. This form of tumour does not respond well to chemotherapy. After multiple tumours over a 5 year period I am now into my 8th year tumour free. :D

Because this treatment was expected to result in an increased rate of deteriorating mobility & mental function, we (my family) decided at the time to use my pigheaded nature to fight back. So I study almost continuously and have worked to increase mobility as a fight back strategy. It has helped, ie I was paraplegic, now I walk, albeit not very gracefully. I'm very slowly doing two degrees online with help from uTas and I'm using open learning to investigate basic physics, chemistry, photography, marine studies, astronomy, mental health and to a lesser degree psychology. The last only because my daughter is currently doing her medical and pharmaceutical degrees as a precursor to studying as a forensic psychiatrist. It's way beyond me but I like to understand and discuss some small fraction of her work - whenever she stays in Australia long enough to see her anyway.

I now have an erratic and to some degree, unusual memory. Some days (not often) I can't remember what I did the day before and I have trouble with names, even my own kids at times. Yet at other times I can describe in detail (including clothes and surroundings) events from when I was two years old - verified by both parents and close uncles/aunties.

Because of my weird brain function I study the same thing again and again, taking copious notes until I grasp all the intricacies. I can't work anymore so I study a lot while my youngest kids are at primary school - it keeps mental deterioration at bay, somewhat anyway. I'm slowly doing a genealogy degree online at uTas and very slowly trying to trudge through applied science studies that I left incomplete when I married over 20 years ago. I'm really not that smart and flunked out in high school, I don't like school. I find that online study suits me a lot better.

I rarely take photos as my best camera is only a digital compact and with having little control over the left side of my body, I have to use tripods for most pics. You should see how bad all my typing is before I tidy it up. :eek

My son helped me with all the DIY threads I used to do but he's 18 now and has far more interesting things to do. He really despises helping with my tanks now unless there's some quirky thing that grabs him. Example - I'm about to treat almost all my live rock with concentrated hydrochloric acid and once he understood the violent chemical reactions involved, he volunteered to do the physical stuff while I film it all for a 'How To' thread I'm planning. Sees himself in the mad scientist roll I suspect. :rolleyes

But that being said, my tanks are not usually much to look at visually as I'm always tampering and experimenting with them. Eg I ran a 100 litre tank for 2 years, never putting a single creature into it intentionally, at least nothing bigger than about 8mm. You can imagine that for most people it would be boring but my then wife and I became fascinated by the microfauna that evolved and the quality of live rock we could produce by seeding it in that tank. Not much to photograph but great to watch with magnifying lenses and lasers. Actually Holly became the new owner of most of that rock and used it to seed her 'morphology' tanks.

My main DT has just been torn down after being used for a four year experiment running a turbid, high nutrient tank as I tried to find optimum growth methods for goniapora, tubastraea, gorgonians, etc. It was a constant battle with algae blooms but I learned a lot about hair and bubble algae along the way. You can see why I'm currently concentrating hydrochloric acid for my party trick.

I will be documenting and photographing the new journey as much as possible in my TJ, beginning with why my tank crashed, entirely destroying a coral & invertebrate collection built up over 6 years but without observable harm to a single fish.The new DT will be a typical low nutrient tank as I want to play with SPS some time late in 2017. As is my preference now, based loosely on Eric Bourneman's philosophy, once the DT is wet it will cycle for about 6 months as I build a microfauna population. I expect it to be ready to transfer my fish back around xmas 2016.

Well that was quite a rant but now it's time this single dad fed his three at home kids.
You are AMAZING STRONG man and I wish you all the best and fight this,I guess we all get in to this hobby that has us pulling our hair out at sometime for a reason, for me it was losing my son and my little hairy son on the same day, so you can practise your psychology on me,
 

Susan Bates

Member
Jan 18, 2015
880
117
Dame ...dame my goni that i have had since i first started has just got brown jelly, happened so quick, and he was doing so well
 

IJG3145

Member
Oct 27, 2015
442
162
South Gippsland
I don't see how you could be adding nitrate to your tank with make up water as mentioned a few times.
Could you give me an example pls.

Here in Sydney there are no nitrates in our water pipes as we have what is called water treatment.
If you are not using a RO filter as the first step to water filtration on site then there is no point keeping a reef type aquarium.
Nitrates can be dealt with effectively by using one of these techniques listed. Dilution, chemical or biological.

I use only one brand (Salifert)of test kit and that brand works just fine for my needs. (Mg, Ca, Kh,No3, K, Iodine) For phosphate I use Hanna.
I don't see your point in trying to get a ultra accurate nitrate test as mentioned on other posts when the test kit I use tests very accurately between 0 and 50 ppm
A reputable test kit wil do just fine , unless the operator is colour blind then digital display would be a better option.
Examples of contaminated RO can occur through exhausted/faulty membranes, storage in non food grade containers, contaminated containers (particularly IBC's) and straight from the water supply. If you have good water then that's great, many don't. Water is 'treated' by adding chloramines and often fluorides, then run through a settling process using floculants to bind particulates. There is no form of nitrate control in standard water treatments at all, ever..

When I managed a division of Schweppes I became heavily involved in water treatment. For example supposedly clean town water is not clean at all, merely potable. Anyone using water in a serious manufacturing process dealing with food grade quality has to employ cleaning methods such as 2 micron sandstone filters, ozone treatment followed by reverse ozone, demineralisation and that's just the beginning. After heavy rains, earthworks, all manner of things, the water gets even worse. This is from an industry site and treatment has to be done for all of these things when using town water.

The most essential water requirements for the production of non-alcoholic beverage and
juices are:

  • low alkalinity
  • no iron or manganese
  • low organic pollution
  • low nitrate content
  • low salt content
  • biological clean
BTW our site at Alexandria in Sydney had the worst quality town water of all our plants throughout England & Australia, yet Cottees at Liverpool was among the best and both fed from the same source, at least then. Your statement that there are no nitrates in Sydney's water system is simply incorrect. It is an impossibility as any water treatment operator can tell you. The fact that you can't measure it is because hobby grade kits only give a good indication, not an accurate reading. The most basic accurate test methods will cost well over $400 just for the machine, much less the consumables and constant calibration required, A good machine is well over $10,000.

I have been keeping fish since 1974 and for the last 8 or 9 years of my 14 year career at Schweppes Cottees, I was able to test various hobby kit readings against testing on the best machines available whenever I visited one of our plants around Australia, pretty much once or twice a week. At that time API test kits could be as far as 18% out (from memory, so thereabouts), others were better but not one test was ever accurate within 5%. That is actually fine for hobby results but certainly not accurate.

Then of course that's all fine and well if you are on metropolitan water, many non suburban areas of Australia draw water from rivers (as we do in my town) small reservoirs that do not treat at the source etc.

As for any reputable test kit is fine, can you please define reputable? API are not fine, some individual Red Sea kits are useless as are one or two Salifert. Even Hanna Australia has ongoing issues with the Hand Checker (HC) range, the so called eggs. The machines are basically sound but can give distorted readings if the lid is not closing fully to prevent light distortion (fairly common) and Hanna have struggled for three years now with the quality control on the testing regents. There have been at least 2 recalls put out by the parent company in the US, although not here, causing lots of complaints on forums about bad batches.

For the record there are great variations in people's colour perception. My original trade with Bowater Paper ( 1978-1984) as a machine setter, involved printing and mixing ink colours by hand. These had to match the PMS (Pantone Matching System) colour samples perfectly, example: all CIG colours had to be mixed by hand to get that unique blue. Less than 30% of people who applied for jobs passed, because they could not pass the various perception tests. They had excellent colour vision, just not good enough. It is those same tests where many potential combat pilots wash out.

That is why any test kit requiring colour matching should be avoided, instead using kits that show a clear change of colour, say from red to grey like with Salifert, Nyos, etc. So sorry but no, not any type kit will do at all..certainly not for everyone.
 
Last edited:

Susan Bates

Member
Jan 18, 2015
880
117
Examples of contaminated RO can occur through exhausted/faulty membranes, storage in non food grade containers and straight from the water supply. If you have good water then that's great, many don't. Water is 'treated' by adding chloramines and often fluorides, then run through a settling process using floculants to bind particulates. There is no form of nitrate control in standard water treatments at all, ever..

When I managed a division of Schweppes I became heavily involved in water treatment. For example supposedly clean town water is not clean at all, merely potable. Anyone using water in a serious manufacturing process dealing with food grade quality has to employ cleaning methods such as 2 micron sandstone filters, ozone treatment followed by reverse ozone, demineralisation and that's just the beginning. After heavy rains, earthworks, all manner of things, the water gets even worse. This is from an industry site and treatment has to be done for all of these things when using town water.

The most essential water requirements for the production of non-alcoholic beverage and
juices are:

  • low alkalinity
  • no iron or manganese
  • low organic pollution
  • low nitrate content
  • low salt content
  • biological clean
BTW our site at Alexandria in Sydney had the worst quality town water of all our plants throughout England & Australia. Your statement that there are no nitrates in Sydney's water system is simply incorrect. It is an impossibility as any water treatment operator can tell you. The fact that you can't measure it is because hobby grade kits only give a good indication, not an accurate reading. The most basic accurate test methods will cost well over $400 just for the machine, much less the consumables and constant calibration required, A good machine is well over $10,000.

I have been keeping fish since 1974 and for the last 8 or 9 years of my 14 year career at Schweppes Cottees, I was able to test various hobby kit readings against testing on the best machines available whenever I visited one of our plants around Australia, pretty much once or twice a week. At that time API test kits could be as far as 18% out (from memory, so thereabouts), others were better but not one test was ever accurate within 5%. That is actually fine for hobby results but certainly not accurate.

Then of course that's all fine and well if you are on metropolitan water, many non suburban areas of Australia draw water from rivers (as we do in my town) small reservoirs that do not treat at the source etc.

As for any reputable test kit is fine, can you please define reputable? API are not fine, some individual Red Sea kits are useless as are one or two Salifert. Even Hanna Australia has ongoing issues with the Hand Checker (HC) range, the so called eggs. The machines are basically sound but can give distorted readings if the lid is not closing fully to prevent light distortion (fairly common) and Hanna have struggled for three years now with the quality control on the testing regents. There have been at least 2 recalls put out by the parent company in the US, although not here, causing lots of complaints on forums about bad batches.

For the record there are great variations in people's colour perception. My original trade with Bowater Paper ( 1978-1984) as a machine setter, involved printing and mixing ink colours by hand. These had to match the PMS (Pantone Matching System) colour samples perfectly, example: all CIG colours had to be mixed by hand to get that unique blue. Less than 30% of people who applied for jobs passed, because they could not pass the various perception tests. They had excellent colour vision, just not good enough.

That is why any test kit requiring colour matching should be avoided, instead using kits that show a clear change of colour, say from red to grey like with Salifert, Nyos, etc. So sorry but no, not any type kit will do at all..
I am in country NSW, and our water is shocking
 

IJG3145

Member
Oct 27, 2015
442
162
South Gippsland
I am in country NSW, and our water is shocking
I'm in a tiny town in Gippsland (Vic) where everyone knows everyone. Because I was the Postmaster and General Store owner, you become the hub for all info getting around. In addition I was a CFA firefighter (still am but not active due to health).

In such a small town we draw water from the Tarwin River (which runs brown) and it is treated at the top of town, on a hill, then gravity fed back. Because it is such a small system, any loss of water is quickly noticed by Sth Gippsland Water and of course the first place they check is with the fire brigade because we can and do take as much unmetered water as we need. Given my background in water treatment with Schweppes, the local water treatment plant operator (a one man operation) and I often compare notes and most rural water is ordinary. That's why the law requires it to be 'potable' but not clean.

I don't know if you heard about it in NSW but it's also why we hate the desalination plant built at nearby Wonthaggi. It rarely runs yet Cost in excess of 1 million dollars a day to keep going and ALL the water is pumped to Melbourne. Even people right next to the plant can't access the good water.
 

Susan Bates

Member
Jan 18, 2015
880
117
I'm in a tiny town in Gippsland (Vic) where everyone knows everyone. Because I was the Postmaster and General Store owner, you become the hub for all info getting around. In addition I was a CFA firefighter (still am but not active due to health).

In such a small town we draw water from the Tarwin River (which runs brown) and it is treated at the top of town, on a hill, then gravity fed back. Because it is such a small system, any loss of water is quickly noticed by Sth Gippsland Water and of course the first place they check is with the fire brigade because we can and do take as much unmetered water as we need. Given my background in water treatment with Schweppes, the local water treatment plant operator (a one man operation) and I often compare notes and most rural water is ordinary. That's why the law requires it to be 'potable' but not clean.

I don't know if you heard about it in NSW but it's also why we hate the desalination plant built at nearby Wonthaggi. It rarely runs yet Cost in excess of 1 million dollars a day to keep going and ALL the water is pumped to Melbourne. Even people right next to the plant can't access the good water.
No I haven't heard about it but I know what you are saying, we have 3 power stations here, and we don't get the power from them we pay the most in all the state, must make sense to someone.
 

Susan Bates

Member
Jan 18, 2015
880
117
Cooma area by any chance?
no. hunter valley, i messaged you my address for the macroalge, I have a daughter at cooma It is hard to get a lot of marine stuff here, most i have to get on line and pay postage on top, that is why i am thinking go changing salt always chasing the red sea, and then pay $50 postage
 

IJG3145

Member
Oct 27, 2015
442
162
South Gippsland
no. hunter valley, i messaged you my address for the macroalge, I have a daughter at cooma It is hard to get a lot of marine stuff here, most i have to get on line and pay postage on top, that is why i am thinking go changing salt always chasing the red sea, and then pay $50 postage
I forgot I had your address.

I can't actually recommend them because my deliveries have been painfully slow. However if they stock it, Age of Aquariums have an $8 flat shipping rate, even for 20kg salt. Even with the delivery charge I can still get my salt (Continuum Halcyon) delivered cheaper from them than any other online store. Also like you, I'm out bush so it's far cheaper than driving to Melb and getting it myself. I'm probably going to suck it and see by ordering 20kg of salt from them in the next couple of weeks....

I'm reasonably close to the beach and used to use NSW but I realised I had introduced ich by using real water - the tank had not had anything added in over a year. Then they dredged along the coast here so that sealed it for NSW.
 

IJG3145

Member
Oct 27, 2015
442
162
South Gippsland
Typical water analysis for my water supply.
View attachment 54253
That's quite good water, yet it contains massive nitrates, probably due to the turbidity reading and the dissolved solids. Note the nitrate reading is not ppm, it is a percentage by volume so even the lowest rate in the range of .66 by volume, equates to 6600 parts per million. That's more than 26,000 times what we aim for in tanks.

It is good water by world health standards but not nearly good enough for tanks, food production, etc. Admittedly they will be conservative numbers because they don't want to get caught out with misleading readings. What you actually get at your tap is almost guaranteed to be better than those readings. Often the variations (ie nitrate readings) are seasonal due to rainfall, or caused by earthworks, etc. As we discovered back when it effected the soft drink I was responsible for, even vibration will loosen particulates along the interior pipe surface, causing increases in TDS and turbidity.

I'll tell you one thing, I think both Susan & I wish we could have water that good.
 

slin1977

Member
Jul 13, 2011
3,476
1,661
Sydney
As I said in my post yesterday "If you are not using a RO filter you are wasting your time with a reef tank"

This is the test of my Sydney tap water.
image.jpeg
 

Susan Bates

Member
Jan 18, 2015
880
117
As I said in my post yesterday "If you are not using a RO filter you are wasting your time with a reef tank"

This is the test of my Sydney tap water.
View attachment 54270
I will test mine today, and let you know what it is, I am not in sydney.Isnt the RO filter used to take out other things like phos that are not good for your tank?
 

slin1977

Member
Jul 13, 2011
3,476
1,661
Sydney
I will test mine today, and let you know what it is, I am not in sydney.Isnt the RO filter used to take out other things like phos that are not good for your tank?
RO flushes all that can't fit through the membrane leaving pure water.
I get my RO membrane tested when I change the two stage pre filter.
Mines been going 12 years on the same RO membrane.
It's worth changing your pre filters when you get about 2-3 ppm TDS
 

Susan Bates

Member
Jan 18, 2015
880
117
Ok I have cut feeding back again,using sock and changing every day, done ex water changes, added bacteria and the nitrates have gone up:cry
 

slin1977

Member
Jul 13, 2011
3,476
1,661
Sydney
Ok I have cut feeding back again,using sock and changing every day, done ex water changes, added bacteria and the nitrates have gone up:cry
Request more info pls.
What bacteria used?
What Nopox dosed ?
What nitrate levels, from what to what?
The bacteria culture contains nitrates BTW.
 

Susan Bates

Member
Jan 18, 2015
880
117
Request more info pls.
What bacteria used?
What Nopox dosed ?
What nitrate levels, from what to what?
The bacteria culture contains nitrates BTW.
I dose 10ml of Nopox, every day. the only bacteria i could get was continuum gen.md. was told i can not get the ones you recommend out side of sydney, salifert test kit gone from 50 to 100