Reef Discussion

IJG3145

Member
Oct 27, 2015
442
162
South Gippsland
Reducing Nitrates
@Susan Bates

Sorry Susan, our threads on nitrates seem to have scattered all over the place so we'll continue working through it here if that's ok? Also this strays a little off topic but may be relevant to you.

I've looked into your feeding, there's not much empirical data available but the good news is that there is no negative anecdotal feedback either. If there are serious problems with any product, it tends to quickly manifest itself in one of the several forums I'm active in across the world. So no news is good news as they say.

Frozen foods are inherently high in phosphates as you know but that can be largely mitigated by thorough rinsing in RODI, as you already do. But before we move on from foods, may I ask why you feed those particular things (perhaps list them again here for the benefit of others)?

There's no reason you shouldn't, the only reason I ask is because of observations on my own tank and they may have no bearing on yours. Still, I'm lucky enough that on weekdays I can sit and study my fish as they eat, for hours if I wish.

Over the last year I've experimented with frozen & live blackworms, frozen and live brine shrimp (both adult and nauplii), frozen and live daphnia, frozen lobster eggs, frozen & live mysis shrimp, frozen cyclops & frozen zooplankton. Yep, too much time on my hands. :)

In my own tank I've observed the following feeding behaviour (the kids' named each fish and it stuck):
  • Black Sailfin Blenny (obligate herbivore) - 'Dracula' is really more of an omnivore however the obligate herbivore title is accurate. He will eat almost anything and never stops picking at rocks and glass but given the right foods and he's at the surface battling for his share. He only shows real interest in my homemade mix, blackworms and brine shrimp, although he's not fast enough to catch many live shrimp. He also enjoys pellets and flakes. He's not much interested in mysis or any fine stuff like lobster eggs or daphnia.
  • PJ Cardinals (carnivore) - B1 & B2 happily eat pellets and to a lesser degree flakes, despite being carnivores. They prefer all the same live and frozen foods as Dracula barring frozen adult brine shrimp, in fact they don't like large shrimp much and only eat it when really hungry. They too are largely disinterested in fine foods.
  • Blue/Green Chromis (omnivore) - The 'Green Lanterns' pretty much the same as the PJ's.
  • Royal Dottyback (carnivore) - 'Flash' is again, pretty similar to the PJ's although a much more aggressive eater.
  • Ocellaris Clowns (omnivore) - Nemo & Marlin are the most aggressive feeders in the tank but their preferences are also like the PJ's.
  • Bangaii Cardinals (carnivore) - Casper & Spook rarely take vegetable matter but as far as meaty foods go, yep same as the PJ's.

So all my fish regardless of labels like carnivore or herbivore, pretty much share the same preferences. It could be argued that my feeding regime has conditioned them that way but frankly I doubt it. They get way too much variety and their feeding is so erratic both in frequency and quantity, that I doubt any conditioning is possible. Some days I don't feed at all (deliberately), some days I feed several times. Sometimes I feed just enough, sometimes I'll dump 4 cubes in at once.*

Based on these observations, when I resurrect the display tank and start transferring my fish back over (around xmas - after 6 months approx cycling), I will cease to feed all forms of fine frozen foods such as lobster eggs & BBS (nauplii). I'll also cease feeding all forms of frozen shrimp, there's not much protein in adult feeder shrimp anyway - alive or dead. The old version of the DT was deliberately high nutrient and that's a hard slog to maintain. The new version will aim for low nutrients as I'll eventually try SPS corals and frankly, all those foods that I'm now abandoning, weren't really directly feeding anything. I'm wondering if it's similar in your tank - either way it should be eliminated as a potential cause.

Those other foods were contributing to the particulate matter in the food column but my barring two very specialised corals, none of my corals needed it as they get fed with reefroids, amino acids & my homemade mix. So hopefully I've given you something to think about, then we'll cross foods off the list and move on.

Did you test your RODI and possible container leeching yet? Both unlikely but need to be ticked off.

Also Susan, by the time this eventuates I hope you'll have no need of it, but I'm saving and late this year I'm hoping to purchase a professional laboratory grade nitrate testing unit. It will be capable of accurately measuring nitrates to within 4 decimal points with a proven accuracy of within 0.001 +/- parts per million. That will settle a few questions and I expect (health allowing) to be inviting people to send me water samples to compare with their readings from various test kits.

If the results are significant, I'll try to replicate them with a view to publishing the results.


*High nutrient tank. I don't keep tangs or anthias that require more precise feeding.
 
Last edited:

RobbieMVFC

Member
Feb 25, 2013
1,232
610
here is my 2 cents on the matter..
Nitrates are best controlled with beneficial bacteria that lives within your tank.
so I am a fan of excessive amounts of live rock, marine pure and things like that .

(IMO) carbon dosing with out the right amount living space(live rock , marine pure... ect) for the bacteria to populate is useless.
Now lets not forget the importance of WC and a good skimmer. These will help if you are finding Nitrate hard to control.

With regards to feeding frozen or pellets . I cannot definitively say one is better than the other however there is a youtube clip that I saw the other day from BRS TV . He said that pellets contain a high concentration level of Po4 therefore he was recommending feeding more of frozen food and less of pellets/ flakes .

BTW I use tank water to defrost the food and then dump the whole lot in,
I figure I might as well feed the corals also but my P04& nitrates are low.
 

Susan Bates

Member
Jan 18, 2015
880
117
Thanks for your time, I have testedRO water and container, they are fine, I am adding bacteria to the tank, was advised to, when my tank crashed last year from tri sulphur that may have caused a problem, what do you think, I have and sock, and cut back feeding, so here is hoping
 

Susan Bates

Member
Jan 18, 2015
880
117
here is my 2 cents on the matter..
Nitrates are best controlled with beneficial bacteria that lives within your tank.
so I am a fan of excessive amounts of live rock, marine pure and things like that .

(IMO) carbon dosing with out the right amount living space(live rock , marine pure... ect) for the bacteria to populate is useless.
Now lets not forget the importance of WC and a good skimmer. These will help if you are finding Nitrate hard to control.

With regards to feeding frozen or pellets . I cannot definitively say one is better than the other however there is a youtube clip that I saw the other day from BRS TV . He said that pellets contain a high concentration level of Po4 therefore he was recommending feeding more of frozen food and less of pellets/ flakes .

BTW I use tank water to defrost the food and then dump the whole lot in,
I figure I might as well feed the corals also but my P04& nitrates are low.
thanks for your 2 cents, I have heaps of live rock and 100s of marine pure balls, wc at least 1 x a week, have been feeding frozen brine shrimp and lobster eggs defrosted in RO water but was told pellets are better, this is my marine pure
IMG_2289.JPG
 

slin1977

Member
Jul 13, 2011
3,476
1,661
Sydney
I now dose daily nitrate and phosphate and run no filter sock.
I keep SPS.
 
Last edited:

Lesley

Member
Apr 2, 2013
2,086
1,079
@Susan Bates

I honestly believe elevated nitrates
Nitrates are caused by

1- overstocking

2- overfeeding

3- lack of flow allowing detritus to settle in the tank and not being suspended in water column

4- poor quality water used for changes

5-lack of correct surface area to Grow denitrifying bacteria eg. Low flow low light

I continue to see people with nitrate issues saying
" I do X % water change every week "
So why do I have nitrate problems

My thoughts on this is do bigger % water changes
If your doing 10% week but nitrates increase by 20% each week you will never win !

Personally what I would do is some large changes to bring nitrate down to an acceptable number that you want to keep
Then leave one week - test and work out what size water change is needed to bring back down to that acceptable number and keep doing that
Some tanks function on very little change others need much more
Work out what your tank needs because every system is very different

I would also rinse & clean
The marine pure balls in old SW removed for wc every 4-6 weeks or so
You will be amazed at the detritus trapped in that chamber
Hope this helps
 

Susan Bates

Member
Jan 18, 2015
880
117
@Susan Bates

I honestly believe elevated nitrates
Nitrates are caused by

1- overstocking

2- overfeeding

3- lack of flow allowing detritus to settle in the tank and not being suspended in water column

4- poor quality water used for changes

5-lack of correct surface area to Grow denitrifying bacteria eg. Low flow low light

I continue to see people with nitrate issues saying
" I do X % water change every week "
So why do I have nitrate problems

My thoughts on this is do bigger % water changes
If your doing 10% week but nitrates increase by 20% each week you will never win !

Personally what I would do is some large changes to bring nitrate down to an acceptable number that you want to keep
Then leave one week - test and work out what size water change is needed to bring back down to that acceptable number and keep doing that
Some tanks function on very little change others need much more
Work out what your tank needs because every system is very different

I would also rinse & clean
The marine pure balls in old SW removed for wc every 4-6 weeks or so
You will be amazed at the detritus trapped in that chamber
Hope this helps
T he only thing i can think of is over stocking or over feeding, in a 400lt tank what would be the recommended amount of fish?
 

Lesley

Member
Apr 2, 2013
2,086
1,079
T he only thing i can think of is over stocking or over feeding, in a 400lt tank what would be the recommended amount of fish?
To be honest
I don't know
I suppose nitrates tell you what your Tank system can handle naturally
Or
Bigger water changes take care of it if you choose to overstock
I have never had a 400lt. It depends on swim Space ,rock scape etc
 

IJG3145

Member
Oct 27, 2015
442
162
South Gippsland
@IJG3145

Wow
You seem to know your stuff !
Any chance of a Fts ?
Love seeing experience reefers set ups ?
Thank you
Not really, I just study a lot. Actually stuff it, might as well let it all hang out. Sometimes I 'feels the need' and it's been some years since I explained why I'm weird. Please don't bother responding re the medical stuff, after all this time it's a little boring. This stupid tumour/cancer doesn't get that giving up is not in me.

I have a rare (in adults) form of brain tumour that is highly aggressive and I've been the prime test subject for new treatments in Australia, that are just now becoming widely available here 7 years after the initial clinical trials were done on me at the William Buckland Centre (Melb) & St Vincents (Melb) in 2008 & 2009. I'm currently the longest known survivor of multiple Malignant Hemangiopericytomain in an adult and in the last trial I spent 49 consecutive days (about two hours each day) in a fibreglass upper body sarcophagus being treated with a then new form of radiation treatment that included laser radiation surgery along with the more common Stereotactic radiotherapy and normal radiotherapy. This form of tumour does not respond well to chemotherapy. After multiple tumours over a 5 year period I am now into my 8th year tumour free. :D

Because this treatment was expected to result in an increased rate of deteriorating mobility & mental function, we (my family) decided at the time to use my pigheaded nature to fight back. So I study almost continuously and have worked to increase mobility as a fight back strategy. It has helped, ie I was paraplegic, now I walk, albeit not very gracefully. I'm very slowly doing two degrees online with help from uTas and I'm using open learning to investigate basic physics, chemistry, photography, marine studies, astronomy, mental health and to a lesser degree psychology. The last only because my daughter is currently doing her medical and pharmaceutical degrees as a precursor to studying as a forensic psychiatrist. It's way beyond me but I like to understand and discuss some small fraction of her work - whenever she stays in Australia long enough to see her anyway.

I now have an erratic and to some degree, unusual memory. Some days (not often) I can't remember what I did the day before and I have trouble with names, even my own kids at times. Yet at other times I can describe in detail (including clothes and surroundings) events from when I was two years old - verified by both parents and close uncles/aunties.

Because of my weird brain function I study the same thing again and again, taking copious notes until I grasp all the intricacies. I can't work anymore so I study a lot while my youngest kids are at primary school - it keeps mental deterioration at bay, somewhat anyway. I'm slowly doing a genealogy degree online at uTas and very slowly trying to trudge through applied science studies that I left incomplete when I married over 20 years ago. I'm really not that smart and flunked out in high school, I don't like school. I find that online study suits me a lot better.

I rarely take photos as my best camera is only a digital compact and with having little control over the left side of my body, I have to use tripods for most pics. You should see how bad all my typing is before I tidy it up. :eek

My son helped me with all the DIY threads I used to do but he's 18 now and has far more interesting things to do. He really despises helping with my tanks now unless there's some quirky thing that grabs him. Example - I'm about to treat almost all my live rock with concentrated hydrochloric acid and once he understood the violent chemical reactions involved, he volunteered to do the physical stuff while I film it all for a 'How To' thread I'm planning. Sees himself in the mad scientist roll I suspect. :rolleyes

But that being said, my tanks are not usually much to look at visually as I'm always tampering and experimenting with them. Eg I ran a 100 litre tank for 2 years, never putting a single creature into it intentionally, at least nothing bigger than about 8mm. You can imagine that for most people it would be boring but my then wife and I became fascinated by the microfauna that evolved and the quality of live rock we could produce by seeding it in that tank. Not much to photograph but great to watch with magnifying lenses and lasers. Actually Holly became the new owner of most of that rock and used it to seed her 'morphology' tanks.

My main DT has just been torn down after being used for a four year experiment running a turbid, high nutrient tank as I tried to find optimum growth methods for goniapora, tubastraea, gorgonians, etc. It was a constant battle with algae blooms but I learned a lot about hair and bubble algae along the way. You can see why I'm currently concentrating hydrochloric acid for my party trick.

I will be documenting and photographing the new journey as much as possible in my TJ, beginning with why my tank crashed, entirely destroying a coral & invertebrate collection built up over 6 years but without observable harm to a single fish.The new DT will be a typical low nutrient tank as I want to play with SPS some time late in 2017. As is my preference now, based loosely on Eric Bourneman's philosophy, once the DT is wet it will cycle for about 6 months as I build a microfauna population. I expect it to be ready to transfer my fish back around xmas 2016.

Well that was quite a rant but now it's time this single dad fed his three at home kids.
 
Last edited:

IJG3145

Member
Oct 27, 2015
442
162
South Gippsland
I'm seeing a definite trend among marine-pure users, away from balls and replacing them with blocks. I've never used the product but anecdotal evidence is emerging that the structure of stacked balls creates dead zones and traps detritus.

I believe the real issue for Susan is to find the source of the problem. The marine-pure might be doing its job but with apparent super high nitrates, huge bacterial cycles will be taking place, preventing equalbrium being established.

I have to say Susan that your tank looks remarkably good for such high levels of nitrates. I know you've tried 2 kits but I think it's worth getting someone else to test your water too. API are useless anyway and a faulty Salifert regent is rare but not unheard of.

Is there anyone near Susan who can help?
 
Last edited:

slin1977

Member
Jul 13, 2011
3,476
1,661
Sydney
Have to say was going to suggest that
Unless in ideal conditions
Flow
Light etc Won't Grow denitrifying bacteria anyway
I disagree, the flow should be fine from the photos shown.

I will even go as far as saying perhaps the reason why (Susan's) nitrates are not being reduced is due to the limited amount of phosphate availability.
As always I say this without hesitation and repeat that it is only my opinion.