Reef Discussion

jashay

Member
Jul 15, 2011
649
84
Wide Bay
frag tanks - out side
hi guys :D

I have been pondering recently about placement. I plan on setting up a frag tank no matter what but would like to pick some of the more experienced brains on the subject. this isnt got to do with the setup and equipment like the last thread I have done on it.

what I have been considering is actually setting up the tank outside where it will get actual sunlight, not sure how many hours, what the temps are going to be like or anything yet, I plan on setting up a test scenario with it to monitor parameters and see how it all goes. my biggest problems that I reckon I will run into are a couple of things.

1. is temperature stability, how much the water heats up through the day, and how much it drops during the night, obviously a larger body of water would will be more stable. also this will depend on the season too, obviously up here our temps are reasonably stable most of the time, but if I have to run a chiller this probably wont work as I cant afford the equipment for that. heating would be fine as a couple of 300 watt would probably be over kill.

2. light, my main thought for doing it out side was this, i mean natural light surely would have to be decent for growth? especially those that are used to being in shallower water.
whether or not a glass top would be appropriate Im not sure, it might cause to much heat and warm the tank up to much.

3. evaporation would possibly be a big issue being that it is outside, in the sun which would cause evaporation, especially with open sumps and flowing water which could cause salinity issues, but topping up isnt to much of an issue there either.

what I am thinking is that if it is outside it wouldnt even need to be a tank, a plastic container (maybe a kids paddle pool/seashell thing??) would possibly be appropriate?

has anyone ever tried this? I know some have set up temporary storage facilities with the like of paddle pools etc. to hold live rock, breed live food etc. but has any body tried to actually do a frag tank setup out side using natural sunlight for propagation purposes? it is just something that has been on my mind recently in regards to having a frag tank setup and trying to be somewhat frugal about the process. obviously I am prepared to do a proper tank setup with it all but thought this might be wort ha good discussion on pros and cons of the idea, the feasability of it all and just a bit of brain storming :D

let me know your thoughts on it all, and feel free to add in any ideas on possible designs, problems etc.

jamie :D
 

MTG

Moderator
Jul 10, 2011
10,664
2,149
Gold Coast
Hi Jamie
i have a friend that was allmost finished setting up a huge scale setup like this,
he had quite a few issues.
he had to use an industrial size chiller and heater. he also had to insulate the pipes to the tank and the back and sides of the tank to keep the water temp stable. he actualy used a huge pool heater/chiller. another issue was that the direct sunlight isnt good for a shallow tank so it needs to get more indirect light or diluted by that UV plastic roof coating to lower the par down.
it would help if you could show some drawings etc showing how you wanted to set it up, also how big were you thinking? the one i was talkin about was going to be like 10 000-20 0000l
 

jashay

Member
Jul 15, 2011
649
84
Wide Bay
gday Matty :D
thanks for getting back to me, I will definately get some plans frawn up to show what I am thinking, as I said it is just in the thought process stage right now, we cant rush these things ;)
insulating the setup would definately help and I was thinking of using a uv sheet to tone down some of the light as I thought it could possibly be a little intense. Im not sure bout the heating chilling factor though, I doubt I could afford the industrial heater chiller but I am thinking that being located where I am our temps can be reasonably stable. my display tank inside doesnt need a chiller, its in a good spot where it doesnt get to hot, or to cold. I am only running a heater in it that only switches on at night when it gets cold. during the warmer 9 months of the year I dont think it would be to much of a prob ubt in the cooler month or so the chill at night might be a factor.
the size I am thinking was something like a few hundred litres, a shallower tank/container around 300-400mm deep, but rather large surface area and width/length. if possible I was thinking a 1000-2000mm square. at the 300mm deep with a 1500mm x 1500mm size it works out to around 600l ( if my maths is right). and then I would also have a sump a similar size. maybe a tad smaller. which would help increase volume to help stability.
I reckon it would need to be this sort of size if it was to be outside as it will also help with temp stability especially at night which I reckon would be the biggest problem of the setup. the reason I want to get into something this size is not for profits or anything, eventually I want to have a massive tank when I build my house once my case for my back is settled and this will take a lot of corals to fill obviously, and I also like to be able to trade and share with other like minded reefers :D
maybe something like this is to big and involved and I would possibly find it easier with a smaller setup in the shed like others frag tanks.
will get some plans drawn up and post to get some ideas from you all :D
 

MTG

Moderator
Jul 10, 2011
10,664
2,149
Gold Coast
you could always use those black kiddie pool things. and insulate the whole thing. then for night time make an insulated lid to keep temps in and just run a decent chiller and heater?
draw up some plans :)
 

jashay

Member
Jul 15, 2011
649
84
Wide Bay
yea those kiddy pools was one of my ideas! great minds think alike ;)

like I said Im not sure whether a chiller will be needed, my average outdoor temp is around the 22-27 degrees celcius, I know this is a bit of a difference in regards to stability, and I also know the ocean actually doesnt change to much but would these temps be a prob?

will get onto some plans :D
 

MTG

Moderator
Jul 10, 2011
10,664
2,149
Gold Coast
the problem you would have is keeping a constant temp. once you start getting sunlight into the tank etc it will definitely heat up.
 

VaultBoy

Member
Jul 10, 2011
2,279
673
Gawler, S.A.
If the tank is in the sunlight for any significant amount of time then it will heat up far past the 22 - 27 ambient temperature especially if it is as shallow as you are thinking.

Have you thought about using an insulated IBC as a sump? It would be cheaper and easier than insulating a glass tank, and the extra ~1000L would go a long way to ensuring temp and bio stability.

Instead of using a chiller you could use a power head pointed at the surface of the water in the sump with a big fan blowing across the turbulent surface water acting as a big evaporative cooler. You would just need a lot of make up water.

Sounds like a bit of a fun project. Keep it up.
 

jashay

Member
Jul 15, 2011
649
84
Wide Bay
yea I figured the sun would be a problem. maybe some clever placement might counteract that. I think its time to start some testing for this tomorrow. will fill the kiddies pool up and take temp readings at regular intervals to see how the changes are.

heres the tank plan :D
 

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marineclass

Member
Jul 12, 2011
604
77
Gold Coast
great idea if it can work - probably cheaper in the long run to set it up in a normal tank with good lighting - but still a great idea. I have been wondering about setting up frags in the ocean and just seeing how they go. It would be great if i lived in fiji or something but hardy corals may do well here. Have to worry about others tealing my corals though - sorry off topic but similar idea :D
 

jashay

Member
Jul 15, 2011
649
84
Wide Bay
gday Jon :D

mate I have actually thought the same about setting some up in the ocen. there would be ways around this though. if you were to do it, I would go out in a boat. find a good location for it, save that in a gps so you knew where it was. and then I would have a cage made from 316 stainless steel (this is marine grade stainless steel and will not rust even being exposed to salt water, it is used commonly for jetty staircases and boating parts, I used to fabricate with the stuff, where I did my apprenticeship we wouldnt touch any job other than stainless work, its where the money is in that trade thats for sure).
making the cage and getting a padlock that is just as corrosive proof would be needed. if you did it on the quiet side and no one else knew about it I cant see why it wouldnt work.

I was actually watching a show over the weekend (cant remember which one it was) but over on one of the tropical islands (possibly the maldives) there is a team of marine conservationists that are building decent sized frame works on which they go and collect corals, they were harder branching type corals, breaking them into pieces and zip tying them all over the frames then placing these frames back in the ocean on the reefs. these corals regrow and rebuild the reef. they had lots and lots of these frames, probably over the hundreds. and the frags were growing very well. one frag frame that they had done a year or two before had been completely covered. these frames were around a metre high, and a diameter of around 700mm. they placed a frag over every part of the frame work and when they showed the previous ones it had completly enclosed the frames (making them go from a skeleton frame to what looked like a solid bell shape).

my only concern of doing it in the ocean would actually not so much be people stealing them, but actually getting in trouble when you went to collect them if the marine rangers (not sure if thats the right name for them) would come along and possibly big fines would be in place?
 

marineclass

Member
Jul 12, 2011
604
77
Gold Coast
yea i agree Jashay - it would be hard to explain that they are actually your corals - if done out in the ocean you could just be seen as fishing - and hide them in an esky or something - Interesting idea -

I just think, imagine if we could put some out there, leave them a year or so checking them every now and then and see how big they grow. It could be done properly wiht the council and some corals get planted in the marine parks
 

jashay

Member
Jul 15, 2011
649
84
Wide Bay
it would be good. I doubt the controlling government would ever permit something like this though. it sucks because you would be adding back to the ocean not just taking!
 

VaultBoy

Member
Jul 10, 2011
2,279
673
Gawler, S.A.
I think its called trans-locating and it is an offence. You would probably need an aquaculture license as you would be raising a "feral" species. It would depend on the laws in your state.

I was thinking about taking some of my home made rock out in my mates boat leaving it on a reef for a couple of months (I am in SA, so by reef I mean rocks with covered in sponges) but decided against it for most of the reasons mentioned on here ie. theft and legalities.
 

marineclass

Member
Jul 12, 2011
604
77
Gold Coast
wow - im glad we talked about this becuase i never would have thought of all this - i was going to be making rock and leaving it in there for a while. I have taken rock out before that was covered in great coraline algea and $26 kg cheaper than buying it at the LFS- maybe ill have to keep an eye out if i do it again
 

jashay

Member
Jul 15, 2011
649
84
Wide Bay
spot on VB! there are so many legislations and laws. even with native speicees I think it would be hard. I think the only way you would be able to do with it is to find an area that isnt consider a marine conservation area (protected). Im not 100% sure but port nourlunga down south of adelaide has a man made rock wall I beleive and fishing and the likes is allowed of the jetty there, so it might be possible. but in saying that I vaguely remember reading somewhere that even taking rocks from the beaches isnt legal anymore? dont quote me on that though as I cant remember.
another option could possibly be a place like osullivans beach boat ramp, it has a rather large rock break to allow calm waters for launching. you could possibly get away with seeding live rock in a "crab pot".

definately be cautious Jon :D ya know 90% of the time you could get away with it, and to go off a little bit it is similar to collecting trees for my other passion bonsai, a lot of the time if you find something you would like to dig seeking permission to collect it is the general rule of thumb. occasionally there are people that find it easier to "beg forgivness than ask permission". in saying that no one in the hobby is prepared to go to national parks and do something like this all though there is a couple that I know that have licenses to collect certain natives for educational/study reasons and another that has a license to collect certified weeds (conisdered noxious weeds, ie. privet) from national parks. he did have to go do a course on how to remove these properly and leave the area as untouched as possible.

it wouldnt hurt to look into the zoning of the marine areas but ofcourse do the reasearch before doing anything that you think might get you in trouble. the last thing I would want to hear is someone getting in trouble for "poaching" I guess is the word, for some things I have said. so what I am saying is I dont condone the ask forgivness trick, so use it at your own risk :D

if someone does look into the laws etc. of this dont forget to let us all know how you go :D